H3 Leveling Kit
#31
07-18-2006, 01:54 PM
RE: H3 Leveling Kit
ORIGINAL: Hummerguy123
Fireman can you explain something. I have cranked my t-bars creating a toe out look. I put a 3" control arm t-bar lift on a Toyota years ago and it created severe toe in (until alignment.) Why is it opposite?
Fireman can you explain something. I have cranked my t-bars creating a toe out look. I put a 3" control arm t-bar lift on a Toyota years ago and it created severe toe in (until alignment.) Why is it opposite?
ORIGINAL: Hummerguy123
I have to disagree with your bumpstop thinking as they come long and short to open or close available lift as per the application (lift or drop) they are really used as protection rather than creating travel. I think Importkiller is correct as by using low profile stops(meant for a drop kit) on a lift, you are creating potentially more free travel althought it could prove detrimental to other parts. If I am wrong please explain, I agree your first post was great!!!
I have to disagree with your bumpstop thinking as they come long and short to open or close available lift as per the application (lift or drop) they are really used as protection rather than creating travel. I think Importkiller is correct as by using low profile stops(meant for a drop kit) on a lift, you are creating potentially more free travel althought it could prove detrimental to other parts. If I am wrong please explain, I agree your first post was great!!!
Yes, bumpstops don't create any travel at all. Thier main job is to limit up travel, so it doesn't bottom out, or allow the tire to contact the vehicle, or the shock to bottom out and result in damage. The bumpstop is just a rubber stop, that is afixed to the frame, or some other solid structure under the vehicle, usually between the frame and the spring/axle. It allows a softened impact, vs. a metal to metal impact in the event that the suspension cycles upward far enough to make contact. However, no bumpstop in the world will allow more, or even restrict downward travel. Limiting straps were created in the off road world to limit that in the event it's needed. Wheelers are always looking for more travel, but it can also be a negative gain. Sometimes the softer range of travel, tried to go further than the user needs, and must be controled through bumpstops and limiting straps. This allows the user to get the most gains from the target range of travel, without damaging the springs/shocks by allowing the suspension to travel too far.
#32
07-18-2006, 02:10 PM
RE: H3 Leveling Kit
ORIGINAL: importkiller
I posted this awhile back. This is NOT my opinion, it is an article put out by a t-bar manufacturer that got sent to my shop.
There still is a lot of misconception about the nature of torsion bars. Hopefully this will help clarify the nature and design of the torsion bar independent suspension setup. To begin with, the torsion bar, like the Leif and coil, is simply a spring. A piece of material which when distorted tries to return to its original position. Like the Leif and coil, the torsion bar can loose its memory [sag], or break. The torsion bar, like the conventional Leif or coil spring is at one end fastened to the frame so as not to move during operation. The other end of the torsion bar is fastened to a pivot [the control arm]. Now as force [weight]
is applied to the pivot end [control arm] it tries to move and take the torsion bar with it, the opposite end being fastened to the frame, can not move so the bar twists and then tries to return to its memory position. This being the point at which the pivot end [control arm] originated. With no applied force [weight], the torsion bar will keep its pivot end [control arm] at the position or angle in which it was originally set. As a constant applied force [set weight] acts upon the torsion bar the torsion bar is resisted from returning all the way back to it's memory or set position. The amount by which the torsion bar can not return to its memory [set] position becomes pre load. Pre load is solely controlled by the amount of force [weight] applied to the torsion bar.
To adjust the ride height of the vehicle by winding the adjuster bolt at the fixed [frame] end of the torsion bar does not add any more force [weight] to the pivot [control arm] end of the torsion bar, therefore the pre load is unaffected, hence ride quality and torsion bar life theoretically remain unchanged. Winding the torsion bar adjuster bolt is the same as installing blocks between the axle and Leif springs or a set of coil spacers; it simply moves the spring to a different position.
The reason the truck may ride a little stiffer is because of the new angle of the pivot [control arm]. As this angle [control arm to ground] becomes greater, the pivot [control arm] exerts less force on the torsion bar effectively reducing the pre load.
Other reasons for a harsh ride after winding the adjuster bolts is YOU WENT TOO FAR. This is when there is not enough room or no room between the control arm and upper bump stops, leaving no room for downwards travel of the control arm. When to replace your torsion bars with larger ones is if you have added substantial weight [winch, large bush bar, heavy bumper, heavier engine, etc.] or if you are looking for a firmer ride. The affected longevity of related components such as c.v. joints, ball joints, spindles, etc. will be the same weather the heavier torsion bars are used or the originals are adjusted, since these components are affected by the selected angle of the control arm. After a height adjustment is made either way, it is a good idea to have an alignment, but you will most times find that everything is still in spec.
I posted this awhile back. This is NOT my opinion, it is an article put out by a t-bar manufacturer that got sent to my shop.
There still is a lot of misconception about the nature of torsion bars. Hopefully this will help clarify the nature and design of the torsion bar independent suspension setup. To begin with, the torsion bar, like the Leif and coil, is simply a spring. A piece of material which when distorted tries to return to its original position. Like the Leif and coil, the torsion bar can loose its memory [sag], or break. The torsion bar, like the conventional Leif or coil spring is at one end fastened to the frame so as not to move during operation. The other end of the torsion bar is fastened to a pivot [the control arm]. Now as force [weight]
is applied to the pivot end [control arm] it tries to move and take the torsion bar with it, the opposite end being fastened to the frame, can not move so the bar twists and then tries to return to its memory position. This being the point at which the pivot end [control arm] originated. With no applied force [weight], the torsion bar will keep its pivot end [control arm] at the position or angle in which it was originally set. As a constant applied force [set weight] acts upon the torsion bar the torsion bar is resisted from returning all the way back to it's memory or set position. The amount by which the torsion bar can not return to its memory [set] position becomes pre load. Pre load is solely controlled by the amount of force [weight] applied to the torsion bar.
To adjust the ride height of the vehicle by winding the adjuster bolt at the fixed [frame] end of the torsion bar does not add any more force [weight] to the pivot [control arm] end of the torsion bar, therefore the pre load is unaffected, hence ride quality and torsion bar life theoretically remain unchanged. Winding the torsion bar adjuster bolt is the same as installing blocks between the axle and Leif springs or a set of coil spacers; it simply moves the spring to a different position.
The reason the truck may ride a little stiffer is because of the new angle of the pivot [control arm]. As this angle [control arm to ground] becomes greater, the pivot [control arm] exerts less force on the torsion bar effectively reducing the pre load.
Other reasons for a harsh ride after winding the adjuster bolts is YOU WENT TOO FAR. This is when there is not enough room or no room between the control arm and upper bump stops, leaving no room for downwards travel of the control arm. When to replace your torsion bars with larger ones is if you have added substantial weight [winch, large bush bar, heavy bumper, heavier engine, etc.] or if you are looking for a firmer ride. The affected longevity of related components such as c.v. joints, ball joints, spindles, etc. will be the same weather the heavier torsion bars are used or the originals are adjusted, since these components are affected by the selected angle of the control arm. After a height adjustment is made either way, it is a good idea to have an alignment, but you will most times find that everything is still in spec.
Winding the torsion bar adjuster bolt is the same as installing blocks between the axle and Leif springs or a set of coil spacers; it simply moves the spring to a different position.
It would be better if it said an add a leaf, instead of blocks. Blocks don't change the suspension travel, or the rate of the springs in any way. It just created as much lift as it sum of height. Add a leafs do change the spring rate, because they, like the torsion adjustment, are being used to push the spring up. They will allow travel range in both directions, but they will create a stiffer ride. Most off roaders avoid add a leafs like the plague, and blocks too for that matter.
[b]Other reaso
#33
07-18-2006, 02:12 PM
RE: H3 Leveling Kit
I meant to say I have negative camber. I had sever positive camber with the prerunner.
I do not understand how teh truck got negative camber when I cranked it up as it should be the other way around.
I do not understand how teh truck got negative camber when I cranked it up as it should be the other way around.
#34
07-18-2006, 02:26 PM
RE: H3 Leveling Kit
[quote]ORIGINAL: Fireman
ORIGINAL: importkiller
I posted this awhile back. This is NOT my opinion, it is an article put out by a t-bar manufacturer that got sent to my shop.
There still is a lot of misconception about the nature of torsion bars. Hopefully this will help clarify the nature and design of the torsion bar independent suspension setup. To begin with, the torsion bar, like the Leif and coil, is simply a spring. A piece of material which when distorted tries to return to its original position. Like the Leif and coil, the torsion bar can loose its memory [sag], or break. The torsion bar, like the conventional Leif or coil spring is at one end fastened to the frame so as not to move during operation. The other end of the torsion bar is fastened to a pivot [the control arm]. Now as force [weight]
is applied to the pivot end [control arm] it tries to move and take the torsion bar with it, the opposite end being fastened to the frame, can not move so the bar twists and then tries to return to its memory position. This being the point at which the pivot end [control arm] originated. With no applied force [weight], the torsion bar will keep its pivot end [control arm] at the position or angle in which it was originally set. As a constant applied force [set weight] acts upon the torsion bar the torsion bar is resisted from returning all the way back to it's memory or set position. The amount by which the torsion bar can not return to its memory [set] position becomes pre load. Pre load is solely controlled by the amount of force [weight] applied to the torsion bar.
To adjust the ride height of the vehicle by winding the adjuster bolt at the fixed [frame] end of the torsion bar does not add any more force [weight] to the pivot [control arm] end of the torsion bar, therefore the pre load is unaffected, hence ride quality and torsion bar life theoretically remain unchanged. Winding the torsion bar adjuster bolt is the same as installing blocks between the axle and Leif springs or a set of coil spacers; it simply moves the spring to a different position.
The reason the truck may ride a little stiffer is because of the new angle of the pivot [control arm]. As this angle [control arm to ground] becomes greater, the pivot [control arm] exerts less force on the torsion bar effectively reducing the pre load.
Other reasons for a harsh ride after winding the adjuster bolts is YOU WENT TOO FAR. This is when there is not enough room or no room between the control arm and upper bump stops, leaving no room for downwards travel of the control arm. When to replace your torsion bars with larger ones is if you have added substantial weight [winch, large bush bar, heavy bumper, heavier engine, etc.] or if you are looking for a firmer ride. The affected longevity of related components such as c.v. joints, ball joints, spindles, etc. will be the same weather the heavier torsion bars are used or the originals are adjusted, since these components are affected by the selected angle of the control arm. After a height adjustment is made either way, it is a good idea to have an alignment, but you will most times find that everything is still in spec.
I posted this awhile back. This is NOT my opinion, it is an article put out by a t-bar manufacturer that got sent to my shop.
There still is a lot of misconception about the nature of torsion bars. Hopefully this will help clarify the nature and design of the torsion bar independent suspension setup. To begin with, the torsion bar, like the Leif and coil, is simply a spring. A piece of material which when distorted tries to return to its original position. Like the Leif and coil, the torsion bar can loose its memory [sag], or break. The torsion bar, like the conventional Leif or coil spring is at one end fastened to the frame so as not to move during operation. The other end of the torsion bar is fastened to a pivot [the control arm]. Now as force [weight]
is applied to the pivot end [control arm] it tries to move and take the torsion bar with it, the opposite end being fastened to the frame, can not move so the bar twists and then tries to return to its memory position. This being the point at which the pivot end [control arm] originated. With no applied force [weight], the torsion bar will keep its pivot end [control arm] at the position or angle in which it was originally set. As a constant applied force [set weight] acts upon the torsion bar the torsion bar is resisted from returning all the way back to it's memory or set position. The amount by which the torsion bar can not return to its memory [set] position becomes pre load. Pre load is solely controlled by the amount of force [weight] applied to the torsion bar.
To adjust the ride height of the vehicle by winding the adjuster bolt at the fixed [frame] end of the torsion bar does not add any more force [weight] to the pivot [control arm] end of the torsion bar, therefore the pre load is unaffected, hence ride quality and torsion bar life theoretically remain unchanged. Winding the torsion bar adjuster bolt is the same as installing blocks between the axle and Leif springs or a set of coil spacers; it simply moves the spring to a different position.
The reason the truck may ride a little stiffer is because of the new angle of the pivot [control arm]. As this angle [control arm to ground] becomes greater, the pivot [control arm] exerts less force on the torsion bar effectively reducing the pre load.
Other reasons for a harsh ride after winding the adjuster bolts is YOU WENT TOO FAR. This is when there is not enough room or no room between the control arm and upper bump stops, leaving no room for downwards travel of the control arm. When to replace your torsion bars with larger ones is if you have added substantial weight [winch, large bush bar, heavy bumper, heavier engine, etc.] or if you are looking for a firmer ride. The affected longevity of related components such as c.v. joints, ball joints, spindles, etc. will be the same weather the heavier torsion bars are used or the originals are adjusted, since these components are affected by the selected angle of the control arm. After a height adjustment is made either way, it is a good idea to have an alignment, but you will most times find that everything is still in spec.
Winding the torsion bar adjuster bolt is the same as installing blocks between the axle and Leif springs or a set of coil spacers; it simply moves the spring to a different position.
It would be better if it said an add a leaf, instead of blocks. Blocks don't change the suspension travel, or the rate of the springs in any way. It just created as much lift as it sum of height. Add a leafs do change the spring rate, because they, like the torsion adjustment, are being used to push the spring up. They will allow travel range in both directions, but they will create a stiffer ride. Most off roaders avoid add a leafs like the plague, and blocks too for
#35
07-18-2006, 02:35 PM
RE: H3 Leveling Kit
ORIGINAL: Hummerguy123
I meant to say I have negative camber. I had sever positive camber with the prerunner.
I do not understand how teh truck got negative camber when I cranked it up as it should be the other way around.
I meant to say I have negative camber. I had sever positive camber with the prerunner.
I do not understand how teh truck got negative camber when I cranked it up as it should be the other way around.
If so, I can only say: The t bar crank may be too much on the H3. The Toy had a lift which replaced the comtrol arm. It could be that the control arm being longer, took the camber out past where it was needed, and the bars were never adjusted to put it in the correct position. In so many words, you may have had too much down travel. So much so, that the suspension reflected it in the apperance of the camber. You could have probably adjusted the t bars, and limited the eccesive down travel, to correct the camber issue, and bring your travel into a more useable range.
That's my best guess .. but I'd probably be more help if I was the to crawl around, and see it in person.
#36
07-18-2006, 02:42 PM
RE: H3 Leveling Kit
ORIGINAL: importkiller
I'm not argueing with ya, I agree with you. Just posted this again cause I think it clears it up a little better as it came direct from a t-bar manufacturer.
I'm not argueing with ya, I agree with you. Just posted this again cause I think it clears it up a little better as it came direct from a t-bar manufacturer.
#37
07-19-2006, 06:02 PM
RE: H3 Leveling Kit
ORIGINAL: Fireman
Just so I understand, the neg camber is on your H3, and the pos camber you experienced, was with your Toy?
If so, I can only say: The t bar crank may be too much on the H3. The Toy had a lift which replaced the comtrol arm. It could be that the control arm being longer, took the camber out past where it was needed, and the bars were never adjusted to put it in the correct position. In so many words, you may have had too much down travel. So much so, that the suspension reflected it in the apperance of the camber. You could have probably adjusted the t bars, and limited the eccesive down travel, to correct the camber issue, and bring your travel into a more useable range.
That's my best guess .. but I'd probably be more help if I was the to crawl around, and see it in person.
ORIGINAL: Hummerguy123
I meant to say I have negative camber. I had sever positive camber with the prerunner.
I do not understand how teh truck got negative camber when I cranked it up as it should be the other way around.
I meant to say I have negative camber. I had sever positive camber with the prerunner.
I do not understand how teh truck got negative camber when I cranked it up as it should be the other way around.
If so, I can only say: The t bar crank may be too much on the H3. The Toy had a lift which replaced the comtrol arm. It could be that the control arm being longer, took the camber out past where it was needed, and the bars were never adjusted to put it in the correct position. In so many words, you may have had too much down travel. So much so, that the suspension reflected it in the apperance of the camber. You could have probably adjusted the t bars, and limited the eccesive down travel, to correct the camber issue, and bring your travel into a more useable range.
That's my best guess .. but I'd probably be more help if I was the to crawl around, and see it in person.
If you put our arms out straight thums up and turn out your thumbs go out mimickng the top of th tire. My question is why does the suspension on the H3 do the opposite?
#38
08-03-2006, 01:33 PM
RE: H3 Leveling Kit
Has anybody done a moderate adjustment, let's say, 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch without having to do an alignment? I would like to attempt this because I'm such a tweaker when it comes to stuff like this. In the other thread that mentions how, I still can't seem to see what the bolt head looks like. Is it something you can use a socket for, or do you need an open-end wrench? IF so, what size?
#39
08-03-2006, 02:53 PM
RE: H3 Leveling Kit
[sm=funnypostabove.gif]
Yo name thief, find the torsion bar and trace it to the endthen look to the out side of the truck from there and you will find it. You need a large ratchet roughly 1-1 1/8. Good luck. You do not need to jack the truck up, just mark hte bolt head with a sharpie first.
Yo name thief, find the torsion bar and trace it to the endthen look to the out side of the truck from there and you will find it. You need a large ratchet roughly 1-1 1/8. Good luck. You do not need to jack the truck up, just mark hte bolt head with a sharpie first.
#40
08-03-2006, 04:24 PM
RE: H3 Leveling Kit
If I knew there was another Hummerguy, I wouldn't have choose this name trust me 
I really didn't look too much through the names before I signed up, but Name Thief sounds fun. I wonder if I can change it......
anyway, Alignment, or no Alignment? Did you?
I really didn't look too much through the names before I signed up, but Name Thief sounds fun. I wonder if I can change it......anyway, Alignment, or no Alignment? Did you?