2010, the end of Hummer (Business Week)
#31
02-25-2010, 11:30 PM
Unions deserve to get trashed.
We have laws in place that protect workers in every state. The 1920's are over.
As you can see the management of parasitic unions have destroyed this country's ability to manufacture anything any more.
Hey, leadership of the actual company producing can waste their money if they want, any different than Obama flying to NYC on a date? Or to Copenhagen?
The unions have destroyed this country. Period.
We have laws in place that protect workers in every state. The 1920's are over.
As you can see the management of parasitic unions have destroyed this country's ability to manufacture anything any more.
Hey, leadership of the actual company producing can waste their money if they want, any different than Obama flying to NYC on a date? Or to Copenhagen?
The unions have destroyed this country. Period.
I love how the unions get thrashed ,who flew to washington in the jets and asked for handouts,what kind of money did the ceo of gm make last year and the one they just fired but are keeping on as a consulant that is working 20 hours a month and getting paid 3000 thousand an hour.Whoever thrashes the union has never worked for a crooked factory that just looks for ways to f---k you day in and day out.
#32
02-27-2010, 05:56 AM
Not really interested in getting into words over how a free market actually works, but GM going bankrupt is a free market practice. Bailing them out is not. Nor is a so called pre-packaged bailout that screws the real creditors and awards the parasites ownerships.
Even in the good times, cash supply for GM was a problem. This lies with the Unions. Our entire car industry has been rendered uncompetitive because of the UAW. This is a handicap.
If GM had gone into Chapter 11, their contracts would have been renegotiated. End of story. It is impossible for this company to stay afloat as it stands thanks to the legacy costs owed to people who have not worked the assembly line in years. Full pay, benefits, etc. Who gets that?
I was against TARP. Against the so-called stimulus plan. Against the omnibus plan. Against the government owning private sector companies. Bush took over nothing, though he spent and did bring us TARP. In total, Bush is responsible for about $700 billion total. Obama on the other hand, spending like a drunk, racked up over $1.7 trillion to our deficit. IN ONE YEAR. Bush did his in 8.
Back to the car industry. Unless the unions are brought under complete control (and why do we even need these parasites?), GM will be a goner in a few years anyway.
So, as long as the government is involved, GM can not manage itself. It was the perfect opportunity to break the hold of the parasitic unions and allow GM to finally return to form.
Losing Hummer is sad, but what is sadder is an administration running it and our economic futures into the ground in the name of socialism.
Even in the good times, cash supply for GM was a problem. This lies with the Unions. Our entire car industry has been rendered uncompetitive because of the UAW. This is a handicap.
If GM had gone into Chapter 11, their contracts would have been renegotiated. End of story. It is impossible for this company to stay afloat as it stands thanks to the legacy costs owed to people who have not worked the assembly line in years. Full pay, benefits, etc. Who gets that?
I was against TARP. Against the so-called stimulus plan. Against the omnibus plan. Against the government owning private sector companies. Bush took over nothing, though he spent and did bring us TARP. In total, Bush is responsible for about $700 billion total. Obama on the other hand, spending like a drunk, racked up over $1.7 trillion to our deficit. IN ONE YEAR. Bush did his in 8.
Back to the car industry. Unless the unions are brought under complete control (and why do we even need these parasites?), GM will be a goner in a few years anyway.
So, as long as the government is involved, GM can not manage itself. It was the perfect opportunity to break the hold of the parasitic unions and allow GM to finally return to form.
Losing Hummer is sad, but what is sadder is an administration running it and our economic futures into the ground in the name of socialism.
Last edited by kramcard6; 02-27-2010 at 06:03 AM.
#33
02-27-2010, 07:33 AM
Have you ever called a labor board and asked them about protection? In Indiana you have no rights unless you are black,mexican or a woman and then they are johnny on the spot.The labor boards in Indiana are a waste of tax payer money.It is a waste of time to even call them.The companys can do what ever they want.Who do you think brought the unions in in the first place.If people were treated fairly there would never be any unions in this country.
#34
02-27-2010, 09:01 AM
GM has only GM to blame!
Its not the fault of the liberals or the conservative, the tree huggers or the tea-baggers, Its GMs fault.
For many years GM has squandered money left and right.
Management either refused to admit mistakes or were just too stupid to see them. Years and years of bad management drove customers away. Lets take a look at just a few shall we. 1) Azteck, 2) Fiero engine fires, 3) A Cadilac (Cimeron) based on a Cavalier, 4) The space ship styled vans (Pontiac Transport and other GM brands) GM could not compete with the other mfgs to build a good mini-van that people wanted to buy. 5) GM ignoring the youth market (sending the current generations of hot-rodders towards Honda, Toyota, and Volkswagon). Yea people call em "ricers", however thier brands are supporting them with great aftermarket parts program (Kinda how GM did it back in the day with the advent of the small block). 6) GMs many many recalls and deniles. 7) The Oldsmobile V8 diesel. 6) GM allowing thier network of dealers get away with treating the customers like ****., 8) Stop development work on the EV (bet they wish they didnt do that now) 9) Fill in your personal favorite...
I do feel that GMs designs and engineering have improved greatly. GM is finally building cars that are equal to anyone, however the mistakes of the past are a ball and chain that GM will have to endure. The competition in the auto industry is much bigger now. The Big three are not Ford, GM and Chrysler. Its Toyota, Volkswagon and GM.
If GM were to listen to the youth market and put out small fun to drive afordable cars years earlier, If GM continued to develop the EV, IF GM listen to Hummer owners ( allow for 2wd mode, better 6 or 7 speed transmission like other auto mfgr were putting out, a diesel option, put it on a diet, and other issues listed in this forum...) If GM treated thier customers with a little more class, IF, IF, IF... would I even be writing this
NO.
Its not the fault of the liberals or the conservative, the tree huggers or the tea-baggers, Its GMs fault.
For many years GM has squandered money left and right.
Management either refused to admit mistakes or were just too stupid to see them. Years and years of bad management drove customers away. Lets take a look at just a few shall we. 1) Azteck, 2) Fiero engine fires, 3) A Cadilac (Cimeron) based on a Cavalier, 4) The space ship styled vans (Pontiac Transport and other GM brands) GM could not compete with the other mfgs to build a good mini-van that people wanted to buy. 5) GM ignoring the youth market (sending the current generations of hot-rodders towards Honda, Toyota, and Volkswagon). Yea people call em "ricers", however thier brands are supporting them with great aftermarket parts program (Kinda how GM did it back in the day with the advent of the small block). 6) GMs many many recalls and deniles. 7) The Oldsmobile V8 diesel. 6) GM allowing thier network of dealers get away with treating the customers like ****., 8) Stop development work on the EV (bet they wish they didnt do that now) 9) Fill in your personal favorite...
I do feel that GMs designs and engineering have improved greatly. GM is finally building cars that are equal to anyone, however the mistakes of the past are a ball and chain that GM will have to endure. The competition in the auto industry is much bigger now. The Big three are not Ford, GM and Chrysler. Its Toyota, Volkswagon and GM.
If GM were to listen to the youth market and put out small fun to drive afordable cars years earlier, If GM continued to develop the EV, IF GM listen to Hummer owners ( allow for 2wd mode, better 6 or 7 speed transmission like other auto mfgr were putting out, a diesel option, put it on a diet, and other issues listed in this forum...) If GM treated thier customers with a little more class, IF, IF, IF... would I even be writing this
NO.
#35
02-27-2010, 01:28 PM
Are there unions in banking? McDonald's? Sears? Wal Mart? Target? or the other 1/2 million companies that do not have unions? Unions represent 7% of the private sector and almost 40% of the public sector.
Their numbers have decreased because they put companies out of business. Where is our steel industry? Toy manufacturing? Any manufacturing.
Unions have destroyed GM, Chrysler and Ford's problems are around the bend.
The legacy costs are killing our private sector and you need to look into why GM, etc. signed onto the outrageous demands of unions.
Sorry, if you have issues with your elected leaders, you vote them out. Having some 3rd party get inbetween you and your employer is insane. And if you are a grunt, you don't wear a suit do you? You don't dine with the President of the US, but your so-called union leaders are.
Now we have a situation where the public sector, read government workers, who are in unions (why?) earn on average $75K per year whereas the average public sector worker earns $41K. Excuse me? And as a taxpayer I have to overpay these idiots in public jobs to do nothing?
This nation was not built by unions, it was destroyed by them.
Their numbers have decreased because they put companies out of business. Where is our steel industry? Toy manufacturing? Any manufacturing.
Unions have destroyed GM, Chrysler and Ford's problems are around the bend.
The legacy costs are killing our private sector and you need to look into why GM, etc. signed onto the outrageous demands of unions.
Sorry, if you have issues with your elected leaders, you vote them out. Having some 3rd party get inbetween you and your employer is insane. And if you are a grunt, you don't wear a suit do you? You don't dine with the President of the US, but your so-called union leaders are.
Now we have a situation where the public sector, read government workers, who are in unions (why?) earn on average $75K per year whereas the average public sector worker earns $41K. Excuse me? And as a taxpayer I have to overpay these idiots in public jobs to do nothing?
This nation was not built by unions, it was destroyed by them.
Have you ever called a labor board and asked them about protection? In Indiana you have no rights unless you are black,mexican or a woman and then they are johnny on the spot.The labor boards in Indiana are a waste of tax payer money.It is a waste of time to even call them.The companys can do what ever they want.Who do you think brought the unions in in the first place.If people were treated fairly there would never be any unions in this country.
#36
02-27-2010, 01:30 PM
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: UK (formerly Chavlamabad, Arabia)
Posts: 110
AMEN, Bush tried to make jobs not shut them down like Obama! I could see Bush giving money to save GM but NEVER Making them close a brand or running their company! Oh I forgot he's not one of us! He drove a Toyota! Isn't it Coincidental they run over people and so does Obama!
Obama wanted to destroy jobs so he gave them a bailout?
This is what I hate about party politics... people coming up with absurd illogical arguments to try to further their political point.
Hummer failed not because of Bush and not because of Obama. They failed because they couldn't sell enough cars - that isn't Bush's fault and not Obamas (whatever your view of those men - this is one case where neither is to blame).
#38
02-27-2010, 01:43 PM
So you are saying that we all should work for walmart and mc donalds because they are the perfect employers.Maybe we should be like china . Do you honestly think that if the uaw were to go away the companys would drop the price of the autos and the savings passed down to us.It would be more money in some execs pocket.
#39
02-27-2010, 02:03 PM
Every business is allowed to find its way to success. As well as to failure.
Why not seek out case studies for each of those vehicles and then look at how many were actually successful. I had no love for he Pontiac Aztek, but now we are seeing vehicles that come close in design and function. This was to be a swiss army knife vehicle. Tried it and it was gone. Fiero, an amazing vehicle that allowed absolute customization. 0.07% of all Fieros experienced engine fires, which was caused by low level of engine oil (who was at fault for that?) a total of 260 cars had this problem, hardly enough to cry over and no one got hurt. But it did pave the way for the MR2 and the miata. No unions got in the way there for Toyota or Mazada.
See what you fail to get is that every time a new model is created and the factory is set to build, GM has to get the ok from the unions. Why? Oh, everyone needs to be retrained. So if the bulb went in at 90º before and now needs to be at 75º weeks of training at the expense of GM. A total drain on finances. Why the heck do you think that all the divisions moved to the same platform? Cutlass, Monte Carlo, etc. all were the same across different divisions except tail lights, front grill and minor changes to the dash.
Quality. WHO BUILDS THESE CARS? Not the exec in the office. The last people to touch these autos are the union members. These cars are designed by the brightest minds, most come from Art Center in Pasadena, and engineers. They are designed to work, fit correctly, hold up. Think some union member who isn't doing his job can be told so by management? Oh no, they have to go to the union. So while GM and others wait for the union to interact, choice is to either shutter the production until it is resolved, thus losing millions or allow production to continue. That is like asking someone else to scratch your own nose. Simply amazing way to think.
The youth market. Please. Scion sold all of 250K xB's over the course of its life. The youth market is not a money maker. The youth market is not brand loyal. They buy a ricer then hit it with cathode's, rims, cai run it into the ground, sell it and then buy a truck when they grow up. No profit margin on these toys. Mitsubishi went after the youth market, where are they now? If you are an after markter, that is where the business regarding the youth market.
Every change GM makes to its models have to be cleared by the unions and the government. Say it went 2 wheel (hummer), that would require new testing. Changes to the structure of the vehicle. And then of course, new training. In the end, if it is going to add $4K per vehicle to listen to you, I'd say no.
Without unions, the japanese were able to refresh their designs every 2 years. Agree or not, that allowed them to pivot to the market. How many changes were made to the Hummer over its lifetime? How many changes were made to the Pontiac Trans Am? 4 generations, nothing but minor changes made to each generation because it cost too much to deal with the freaking unions.
Onto government. The standards are ridiculious. They demand lighter cars and this makes them dangerous. They demand certain fuel usage or even cost (anyone remember the luxury tax of cars purchased over $30K?). Now the government owns and operates GM. So instead of selling off its shares, they are holding it. They fire 2 GM men and install the aged chairman of ATT. Anyone have ATT as their cell carrier? Obama is calling the shots.
GM has the right to succeed and to fail, just like any other company.
Had they gone into a true bankruptcy their contracts would have been renegotiated. Unions, suppliers, pensions, etc. Freeing them to function in a free market. They would not have need to sell or close a single division.
Keep in mind that some guy or gal who last put a chrome trim on a Cadillac Rivera is still pulling 80% pay and full benefits. You getting that? No, you have an IRA or 401 (k), what world are these people living in to think that this is how a business can survive. Go to Michigan, go to places where we actually built things and look at the ghost towns courtesy of local whatever.
A company owes you nothing and vice versa. You are buying a car. Does it work? What is the warranty? If they are not holding up their end of the bargain, you have every right to move on. Yes, customer service is key to a good buying experience.
Matters not what I say, UAW now owns 60% of GM and Obama, who has never worked in the private sector, runs it as he sees fit.
So, Unions now empowered by a socialist administration is putting the nail in the coffin for our beloved auto industry.
Why not seek out case studies for each of those vehicles and then look at how many were actually successful. I had no love for he Pontiac Aztek, but now we are seeing vehicles that come close in design and function. This was to be a swiss army knife vehicle. Tried it and it was gone. Fiero, an amazing vehicle that allowed absolute customization. 0.07% of all Fieros experienced engine fires, which was caused by low level of engine oil (who was at fault for that?) a total of 260 cars had this problem, hardly enough to cry over and no one got hurt. But it did pave the way for the MR2 and the miata. No unions got in the way there for Toyota or Mazada.
See what you fail to get is that every time a new model is created and the factory is set to build, GM has to get the ok from the unions. Why? Oh, everyone needs to be retrained. So if the bulb went in at 90º before and now needs to be at 75º weeks of training at the expense of GM. A total drain on finances. Why the heck do you think that all the divisions moved to the same platform? Cutlass, Monte Carlo, etc. all were the same across different divisions except tail lights, front grill and minor changes to the dash.
Quality. WHO BUILDS THESE CARS? Not the exec in the office. The last people to touch these autos are the union members. These cars are designed by the brightest minds, most come from Art Center in Pasadena, and engineers. They are designed to work, fit correctly, hold up. Think some union member who isn't doing his job can be told so by management? Oh no, they have to go to the union. So while GM and others wait for the union to interact, choice is to either shutter the production until it is resolved, thus losing millions or allow production to continue. That is like asking someone else to scratch your own nose. Simply amazing way to think.
The youth market. Please. Scion sold all of 250K xB's over the course of its life. The youth market is not a money maker. The youth market is not brand loyal. They buy a ricer then hit it with cathode's, rims, cai run it into the ground, sell it and then buy a truck when they grow up. No profit margin on these toys. Mitsubishi went after the youth market, where are they now? If you are an after markter, that is where the business regarding the youth market.
Every change GM makes to its models have to be cleared by the unions and the government. Say it went 2 wheel (hummer), that would require new testing. Changes to the structure of the vehicle. And then of course, new training. In the end, if it is going to add $4K per vehicle to listen to you, I'd say no.
Without unions, the japanese were able to refresh their designs every 2 years. Agree or not, that allowed them to pivot to the market. How many changes were made to the Hummer over its lifetime? How many changes were made to the Pontiac Trans Am? 4 generations, nothing but minor changes made to each generation because it cost too much to deal with the freaking unions.
Onto government. The standards are ridiculious. They demand lighter cars and this makes them dangerous. They demand certain fuel usage or even cost (anyone remember the luxury tax of cars purchased over $30K?). Now the government owns and operates GM. So instead of selling off its shares, they are holding it. They fire 2 GM men and install the aged chairman of ATT. Anyone have ATT as their cell carrier? Obama is calling the shots.
GM has the right to succeed and to fail, just like any other company.
Had they gone into a true bankruptcy their contracts would have been renegotiated. Unions, suppliers, pensions, etc. Freeing them to function in a free market. They would not have need to sell or close a single division.
Keep in mind that some guy or gal who last put a chrome trim on a Cadillac Rivera is still pulling 80% pay and full benefits. You getting that? No, you have an IRA or 401 (k), what world are these people living in to think that this is how a business can survive. Go to Michigan, go to places where we actually built things and look at the ghost towns courtesy of local whatever.
A company owes you nothing and vice versa. You are buying a car. Does it work? What is the warranty? If they are not holding up their end of the bargain, you have every right to move on. Yes, customer service is key to a good buying experience.
Matters not what I say, UAW now owns 60% of GM and Obama, who has never worked in the private sector, runs it as he sees fit.
So, Unions now empowered by a socialist administration is putting the nail in the coffin for our beloved auto industry.
GM has only GM to blame!
Its not the fault of the liberals or the conservative, the tree huggers or the tea-baggers, Its GMs fault.
For many years GM has squandered money left and right.
Management either refused to admit mistakes or were just too stupid to see them. Years and years of bad management drove customers away. Lets take a look at just a few shall we. 1) Azteck, 2) Fiero engine fires, 3) A Cadilac (Cimeron) based on a Cavalier, 4) The space ship styled vans (Pontiac Transport and other GM brands) GM could not compete with the other mfgs to build a good mini-van that people wanted to buy. 5) GM ignoring the youth market (sending the current generations of hot-rodders towards Honda, Toyota, and Volkswagon). Yea people call em "ricers", however thier brands are supporting them with great aftermarket parts program (Kinda how GM did it back in the day with the advent of the small block). 6) GMs many many recalls and deniles. 7) The Oldsmobile V8 diesel. 6) GM allowing thier network of dealers get away with treating the customers like ****., 8) Stop development work on the EV (bet they wish they didnt do that now) 9) Fill in your personal favorite...
I do feel that GMs designs and engineering have improved greatly. GM is finally building cars that are equal to anyone, however the mistakes of the past are a ball and chain that GM will have to endure. The competition in the auto industry is much bigger now. The Big three are not Ford, GM and Chrysler. Its Toyota, Volkswagon and GM.
If GM were to listen to the youth market and put out small fun to drive afordable cars years earlier, If GM continued to develop the EV, IF GM listen to Hummer owners ( allow for 2wd mode, better 6 or 7 speed transmission like other auto mfgr were putting out, a diesel option, put it on a diet, and other issues listed in this forum...) If GM treated thier customers with a little more class, IF, IF, IF... would I even be writing this
NO.
Its not the fault of the liberals or the conservative, the tree huggers or the tea-baggers, Its GMs fault.
For many years GM has squandered money left and right.
Management either refused to admit mistakes or were just too stupid to see them. Years and years of bad management drove customers away. Lets take a look at just a few shall we. 1) Azteck, 2) Fiero engine fires, 3) A Cadilac (Cimeron) based on a Cavalier, 4) The space ship styled vans (Pontiac Transport and other GM brands) GM could not compete with the other mfgs to build a good mini-van that people wanted to buy. 5) GM ignoring the youth market (sending the current generations of hot-rodders towards Honda, Toyota, and Volkswagon). Yea people call em "ricers", however thier brands are supporting them with great aftermarket parts program (Kinda how GM did it back in the day with the advent of the small block). 6) GMs many many recalls and deniles. 7) The Oldsmobile V8 diesel. 6) GM allowing thier network of dealers get away with treating the customers like ****., 8) Stop development work on the EV (bet they wish they didnt do that now) 9) Fill in your personal favorite...
I do feel that GMs designs and engineering have improved greatly. GM is finally building cars that are equal to anyone, however the mistakes of the past are a ball and chain that GM will have to endure. The competition in the auto industry is much bigger now. The Big three are not Ford, GM and Chrysler. Its Toyota, Volkswagon and GM.
If GM were to listen to the youth market and put out small fun to drive afordable cars years earlier, If GM continued to develop the EV, IF GM listen to Hummer owners ( allow for 2wd mode, better 6 or 7 speed transmission like other auto mfgr were putting out, a diesel option, put it on a diet, and other issues listed in this forum...) If GM treated thier customers with a little more class, IF, IF, IF... would I even be writing this
NO.
#40
02-27-2010, 02:08 PM
Pardon? This is the land of opportunity. You can choose to work at Wal mart or start your own wal mart.
We are like RED CHINA. China is a communist country, you know that right? You work for the state.
Workers of the world unite! How'd that work out for the USSR?
There are a million careers and if all you can do is push a mop, then you need to learn to be the best mop pusher as opposed to waiting for your union delegate to protect you. Protect yourself. Otherwise you are in a deep slumber beholden to others for your welfare as opposed to controlling your own destiny.
We are like RED CHINA. China is a communist country, you know that right? You work for the state.
Workers of the world unite! How'd that work out for the USSR?
There are a million careers and if all you can do is push a mop, then you need to learn to be the best mop pusher as opposed to waiting for your union delegate to protect you. Protect yourself. Otherwise you are in a deep slumber beholden to others for your welfare as opposed to controlling your own destiny.
So you are saying that we all should work for walmart and mc donalds because they are the perfect employers.Maybe we should be like china . Do you honestly think that if the uaw were to go away the companys would drop the price of the autos and the savings passed down to us.It would be more money in some execs pocket.