The Great H3/H3T Hyrdualic Winch Thread
#1
02-05-2010, 09:11 AM
The Great H3/H3T Hyrdaulic Winch Thread
Welcome to the Great H3/H3T Hyrdaulic Winch Thread!
I figured we needed a dedicated thread for this; with newer and more affordable hydrualic winches coming onto the market both from Warn and MileMarker; information regarding things like installation details, compatability and where to buy are becoming more sought after. Hopefully this thread can answer some of those questions!
A few Benifits to consider:
-Continuous Duty: A Hyrdaulic winch is unique in the fact it can be run non-stop without overheating
-Stalling: When stalling a Hyrdaulic winch it does not typically damage the winch
-Pulling Speed: Hyrdaulic winches pull at the same speed irregardless of load
-Electrical Strain: Aside from basic power to supply the control they do not put any strain on your electrical system
-Submersable: Most Hyrdaulic winches are fully Submersable
Useful Links:
WARN
For hydraulic winching applications, no product performs better than a WARN Industrial winch. Powerful hydraulic motors allow for extended duty. Hardened steel, two-stage planetary gear trains deliver efficient and reliable operation plus fast line speeds. Like their electric cousins, these products comply with world-wide quality and safety standards.
Warn hydraulic Winches:
http://www.warn.com/industrial/winch...ches_all.shtml
Mile Marker
The Mile Marker Hydraulic Winch System has been a self-recovery icon for over 15 years. This legendary system utilizes the vehicle's OEM power steering pump as its power source. Everyday, more than 200 million power steering pumps operate flawlessly. Used in all types of vehicles, under every condition, from 50 below to 135 degrees above, the pump must perform for years without service or adjustment. It has to withstand every type of abuse without failure. Having a built-in governor (the pressure relief valve), it is impossible to overload or overwork the pump. This is why harnassing the hydraulic power steering pump has become the best choice for recovery power!
MileMarker hydraulic Winches:
http://www.milemarker.com/products/hydraulic.html
I figured we needed a dedicated thread for this; with newer and more affordable hydrualic winches coming onto the market both from Warn and MileMarker; information regarding things like installation details, compatability and where to buy are becoming more sought after. Hopefully this thread can answer some of those questions!
A few Benifits to consider:
-Continuous Duty: A Hyrdaulic winch is unique in the fact it can be run non-stop without overheating
-Stalling: When stalling a Hyrdaulic winch it does not typically damage the winch
-Pulling Speed: Hyrdaulic winches pull at the same speed irregardless of load
-Electrical Strain: Aside from basic power to supply the control they do not put any strain on your electrical system
-Submersable: Most Hyrdaulic winches are fully Submersable
Useful Links:
WARN
For hydraulic winching applications, no product performs better than a WARN Industrial winch. Powerful hydraulic motors allow for extended duty. Hardened steel, two-stage planetary gear trains deliver efficient and reliable operation plus fast line speeds. Like their electric cousins, these products comply with world-wide quality and safety standards.
Warn hydraulic Winches:
http://www.warn.com/industrial/winch...ches_all.shtml
Mile Marker
The Mile Marker Hydraulic Winch System has been a self-recovery icon for over 15 years. This legendary system utilizes the vehicle's OEM power steering pump as its power source. Everyday, more than 200 million power steering pumps operate flawlessly. Used in all types of vehicles, under every condition, from 50 below to 135 degrees above, the pump must perform for years without service or adjustment. It has to withstand every type of abuse without failure. Having a built-in governor (the pressure relief valve), it is impossible to overload or overwork the pump. This is why harnassing the hydraulic power steering pump has become the best choice for recovery power!
MileMarker hydraulic Winches:
http://www.milemarker.com/products/hydraulic.html
Last edited by Sugarphreak; 02-05-2010 at 09:25 AM.
#2
02-05-2010, 09:32 AM
The biggest issue we need to address is H3 & H3T Compatibility. At the moment I am unsure if Mile Marker provides an adapter kit that will fit these Hummers.
Currently Mile Marker seems like the best option for Hydraulic Winches to me, they have been around the longest and are considerably more affordable than the Warn.
Best price I have found for these winches so far is on SummitRacing.com;
http://www.summitracing.com/search/P...rd=mile+marker
If anybody comes across better pricing please feel free to post it up!
Currently Mile Marker seems like the best option for Hydraulic Winches to me, they have been around the longest and are considerably more affordable than the Warn.
Best price I have found for these winches so far is on SummitRacing.com;
http://www.summitracing.com/search/P...rd=mile+marker
If anybody comes across better pricing please feel free to post it up!
#3
02-05-2010, 09:36 AM
Also one other thing I wanted to mention is that if there is considerable interest in this winch we could go to Mile Marker directly with a group buy to see if we can get a discount & perhaps ask them custom make an adapter kit for the H3/H3T.
#4
02-05-2010, 10:55 AM
Good call Sugarphreak, excellent thread idea.
While I understand the basics between the two, some real life experiences with hydraulic would be awesome. Can any damage, lifespan-reduction take place when using the power steering pump for a supply??
While I understand the basics between the two, some real life experiences with hydraulic would be awesome. Can any damage, lifespan-reduction take place when using the power steering pump for a supply??
#5
02-05-2010, 12:28 PM
The power steering pump is turning whenever the engine is running and the excess flow goes through the bypass value, so there should be no additional wear in the PS pump. On the other hand the electric winch will put additional wear on your battery and alternator, so the advantage is clearly in favor of hydraulic.
If you are concerned about the longevity of the pump or its ability to provide adequate flow, you can replace your pump with a heavy duty higher flow rate pump. My plan is to use the OEM pump until it starts making noise and then upgrade it.
If you are going to use your winch in HOT weather, I would recommend adding a power steering fluid cooler. The fluid actually acts as a coolant for the pump and motor so a cooler will significantly reduce wear and heat in the winch.
I would like to add that hydraulic winches run much cooler than electric winches due to the cooling mentioned above and higher motor efficiency, so if you intend to use synthetic winch line the hydraulic winch is a big advantage since synthetic winch line is more sensitive to heat than steel cable.
I contacted Mile Marker technical support and asked about their install kit for the Hummer H3/H3T. They do not have a kit specifically for the H3/H3T (yet), but they said all they would need to do is make a set of custom hoses. Since most people end up shortening the hoses (because they usually make them longer than necessary) I'll probably just get a standard kit and have a local hydraulics shop shorten them. I have read that the excessively long hoses can cause excessive power steering noise and reducing the length minimizes the noise.
I have read many reviews on hydraulic winches but I have yet to find anyone who recommends electric over hydraulic (except for manufactures that only make electric). If anyone knows of a pro electric winch review I'd like to see it.
#6
02-05-2010, 01:07 PM
^^^
This is the same for me, anybody I know who has actually used a hydraulic winch basically says it will outlast 3 or 4 electric winches.
The only complaints I have heard is that on vehicles with very light power steering pumps (such as an LR Defender) will end up having a very slow line pull speed.
The most common thing mentioned as an advantage for electric is that the engine MUST be running to operate a hydraulic winch. But consider this... in a case where your engine is not running you are more than likely up to the winshield in water.... which means your entire electrical system is going to be comprimised and your electric winch probably won't get you out anyway. On the flip side of that arguement; if you happen to fully submerge your winch, likely the electric one will short out while a hydrualic one will have no problems at all.
The biggest selling point for me is that the US military only uses MileMarker Hydrualic winches, so you can trust the technology is solid and reliable.
Did you ask them about thier series 35 valve adapter kit by chance? I don't know if it will fit the H3/H3T or not.
This is the same for me, anybody I know who has actually used a hydraulic winch basically says it will outlast 3 or 4 electric winches.
The only complaints I have heard is that on vehicles with very light power steering pumps (such as an LR Defender) will end up having a very slow line pull speed.
The most common thing mentioned as an advantage for electric is that the engine MUST be running to operate a hydraulic winch. But consider this... in a case where your engine is not running you are more than likely up to the winshield in water.... which means your entire electrical system is going to be comprimised and your electric winch probably won't get you out anyway. On the flip side of that arguement; if you happen to fully submerge your winch, likely the electric one will short out while a hydrualic one will have no problems at all.
The biggest selling point for me is that the US military only uses MileMarker Hydrualic winches, so you can trust the technology is solid and reliable.
I contacted Mile Marker technical support and asked about their install kit for the Hummer H3/H3T. They do not have a kit specifically for the H3/H3T (yet), but they said all they would need to do is make a set of custom hoses. Since most people end up shortening the hoses (because they usually make them longer than necessary) I'll probably just get a standard kit and have a local hydraulics shop shorten them. I have read that the excessively long hoses can cause excessive power steering noise and reducing the length minimizes the noise.
Last edited by Sugarphreak; 02-05-2010 at 01:13 PM.
#7
02-05-2010, 05:49 PM
I also intend to ask how the dimensions of the HI9000 compare to the Warn 9.5ti. ARB indicated that their Deluxe Bull Bar will accommodate a Warn 9.5ti but they have never done a fit check for the MM HI9000.
#8
02-07-2010, 11:16 PM
Sweet!
Keep me posted on what you hear back about the adapter kit, I am getting pretty close to pulling the trigger!
Keep me posted on what you hear back about the adapter kit, I am getting pretty close to pulling the trigger!
#9
02-08-2010, 12:08 AM
Keep the Safety On
I've been reviewing Warn's web site and the Warn hydraulic winch is an Industrial winch intended for tow truck applications. The flow rate requirements are too high for power steering pumps. For example the series 9 round top http://www.warn.com/industrial/winches/9RT.shtml has a flow rate requirement of 16 USGPM. These winches would require a hydraulic pump on a PTO, so they aren't a consideration for me.
One thing I noticed in the Mile Marker hydraulic winch photos is there are two leavers, one on the top and one on the side. In the installation manual http://www.milemarker.com/pdf_downloads/70series_instructions.pdf it says these leavers are used to switch the winch between free, low, high and lock. This could create an access issues if the winch is going to be enclosed inside the bumper. It may be possible to remote control them by adding drive motors or to extend the leavers to a more convenient location by adding a long shaft or a chain drive, but this is something that needs to be considered. I'll ask about that when I call Mile Marker tomorrow.
I found a site that discusses the tradeoffs of electric and hydraulic winches and they are not in love with hydraulics, on the other hand their agreements for electric were not very convincing. http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1324
After reviewing this site I'm more concerned about the potential impacts that an electrical winch could have on the electrical system. Burning out the stereo/nav system would be bad, but burning out the onboard computer could be disastrous.
IF I decide to go electrical, I'll need dual high output batteries and a high output alternator. So the added cost and weight need to be considered.
IF I decide to go with hydraulic, I need to make sure the power steering pump can provide 3.5 GPM or upgrade the pump or add an auxiliary pump. The advantage of the auxiliary pump is the winch system would be independent from the steering and if it were equipped with an electric clutch, then the parasitic power could be eliminated when the winch isn't in use.
After reviewing the Mile Marker videos at http://www.milemarker.com/videos.html . I have decided I would go with the HI10500 instead of the HI9000. The HI9000 and the HI10500 weigh the save, but the HI9000 is rated at 5,400 lbs with 4 layers of cable where as the HI10500 is rated at 6,400 lbs with 4 layers. I like having my lowest rating greater that my vehicle Gross Vehicle Weight Rating.
I was told that the Warn 9.5ti would fit in the bumper that I am considering, so if the MM HI10500 will fit within the envelope of the Warn 9.5ti then it should fit. The following are the dimensions of each.
Warn 9.5ti Winch Dimensions:23.1" L. x 6.3" D. x 10.0" H
Mile Marker HI10500 Size: 22.14 in. X 6.5 in. X 7.8 in.
So it looks like the MM HI10500 is a definite maybe since only the depth exceeds that of the Warn 9.5ti and only by 0.2".
One thing I noticed in the Mile Marker hydraulic winch photos is there are two leavers, one on the top and one on the side. In the installation manual http://www.milemarker.com/pdf_downloads/70series_instructions.pdf it says these leavers are used to switch the winch between free, low, high and lock. This could create an access issues if the winch is going to be enclosed inside the bumper. It may be possible to remote control them by adding drive motors or to extend the leavers to a more convenient location by adding a long shaft or a chain drive, but this is something that needs to be considered. I'll ask about that when I call Mile Marker tomorrow.
I found a site that discusses the tradeoffs of electric and hydraulic winches and they are not in love with hydraulics, on the other hand their agreements for electric were not very convincing. http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1324
After reviewing this site I'm more concerned about the potential impacts that an electrical winch could have on the electrical system. Burning out the stereo/nav system would be bad, but burning out the onboard computer could be disastrous.
IF I decide to go electrical, I'll need dual high output batteries and a high output alternator. So the added cost and weight need to be considered.
IF I decide to go with hydraulic, I need to make sure the power steering pump can provide 3.5 GPM or upgrade the pump or add an auxiliary pump. The advantage of the auxiliary pump is the winch system would be independent from the steering and if it were equipped with an electric clutch, then the parasitic power could be eliminated when the winch isn't in use.
After reviewing the Mile Marker videos at http://www.milemarker.com/videos.html . I have decided I would go with the HI10500 instead of the HI9000. The HI9000 and the HI10500 weigh the save, but the HI9000 is rated at 5,400 lbs with 4 layers of cable where as the HI10500 is rated at 6,400 lbs with 4 layers. I like having my lowest rating greater that my vehicle Gross Vehicle Weight Rating.
I was told that the Warn 9.5ti would fit in the bumper that I am considering, so if the MM HI10500 will fit within the envelope of the Warn 9.5ti then it should fit. The following are the dimensions of each.
Warn 9.5ti Winch Dimensions:23.1" L. x 6.3" D. x 10.0" H
Mile Marker HI10500 Size: 22.14 in. X 6.5 in. X 7.8 in.
So it looks like the MM HI10500 is a definite maybe since only the depth exceeds that of the Warn 9.5ti and only by 0.2".
#10
02-08-2010, 08:24 PM
I contacted Mile Marker today and they confirmed that the series 35 adapter kit part number 35-5020-15 GM, Dodge, International, Chevrolet, H2 should work in the H3 but the hoses would need to be shortened. They only say should because they have not actually tested it yet. They also confirmed that the two levers need to be accessed physically. Electric winches will have one level that must be accessed.
To determine the power steering pump rated capacity I contacted 3 Hummer dealers before I got a service department person who could answer. He indicated that the pump is rated at 4 GPM, but he claimed that since the H3 uses rack and pinion steering he did not recommend the Mile Marker hydraulic pump. He said that it made steering more difficult at low speed. He recommended and electric winch over hydraulic, but he said if I really wanted a hydraulic winch to use an independent pump driven off the serpentine belt. I would recommend using an identical power steering pump (for parts commonality) and the same electric clutch as the air conditioner (assuming the torque rating is sufficient). However this is starting to sound too much like a science project for me.
Next, I went to my local 4 Wheel Parts supply and got a quote on an ARB Deluxe Bull Bar bumper. They have it on sale right now and the price they quoted me was better than the best price I could find on the Internet. I asked them about hydraulic winches and they tried to talk me into an electric winch. They will install the bumper and electric winch for me but not the hydraulic winch.
Finally, I called ARBUSA and asked them about winch compatibility with the ARB Deluxe Bull Bar. They only claim that their bumpers are compatible with Warn winches because that is all they have tested, but the winch must be the remote solenoid type, so the 9.5xp fits but not the 9.5ti. Also they indicated that there is an access hole in the bumper to reach the clutch leaver.
After a full day of talking to supposed experts and everyone (except Mile Marker) trying to talk me into an electric winch instead of hydraulic I'm starting to waver.
Here is a picture of the Warn 9.5xp winch and specs. Sorry about the off brand vehicle!
9.5XP SPECS/PART NUMBERS
Part Number: 68500 (12V)
Rated Line Pull: 9,500 lbs. (4310 kgs) single-line
Intended Use/Application: Vehicle Recovery / For Trucks and SUVs
Duty Cycle Rating:
Motor: 12V 6 hp, High Output Parallel Series Wound
Remote Control: Remote switch, 12" (3.7m) lead
Geartrain: 3-Stage Planetary
Gear Ratio: 156:1
Lubrication: Aeroshell #17
Clutch (freespooling): Sliding Ring Gear
Brake: Automatic Direct Drive Cone
Wire Rope: 100', 5/16" diameter (30m, 8mm diam.)
Fairlead: Roller
Recommended Battery: 650 CCA minimum for winching
Battery Leads: 2 gauge, 72" (1.83m)
Finish: Chromate with high-gloss dark gray powder coat
Drum Diameter/Length: 2.5"/9.0" (6.4cm/23cm)
Weight: 87 lbs. (39.5 kgs.)
12V DC PERFORMANCE SPECS
Line Pull Line Speed Motor Pull by layer
Lbs.(Kgs.) FT./min(M/min.) Current layer/Lbs(Kgs.)
0 38(11.6) 70 amps 1/9500(4313)
2000(910) 16.8(5.1) 175 amps 2/8650(4927)
4000(1818) 12.8(3.9) 262 amps 3/7920 (3595)
6000(2720) 10.1(3.1) 335 amps 4/7400(3359)
8000(3630) 8.8(2.7) 425 amps 5/6940(3150)
9500(4310) 7.6(2.3) 480 amps
Above performance specs are based on first layer of drum
Winch Dimensions: 22.7" L. x 6.3" D. x 7.7" H.
(577mm L. x 160mm D. x 196 mm H)
Mounting Bolt Pattern: 10.0" x 4.5" (254mm x 114.3mm)
They say best duty cycle, but I wish they quantified it instead of providing a relative scale.
I check the ratings on Optima batteries and assuming I installed a 75 AH Optima, then pulling 6,000 lbs for 1 minute would consume 7.5% of the batteries capacity and a 6,000 lbs pull for 6.7 minutes would consume 50% of the battery capacity and cover 67 feet, but probably over heat the winch. These battery consumption numbers do not seam nearly as scary as I previously thought. Since you are basically just using a percentage of the battery capacity, I think all you need is a high current capacity battery and enough brains to stop before you overheat the winch and/or drain the battery.
The big question is how many minutes could you pull before you needed to stop for cool down?
To determine the power steering pump rated capacity I contacted 3 Hummer dealers before I got a service department person who could answer. He indicated that the pump is rated at 4 GPM, but he claimed that since the H3 uses rack and pinion steering he did not recommend the Mile Marker hydraulic pump. He said that it made steering more difficult at low speed. He recommended and electric winch over hydraulic, but he said if I really wanted a hydraulic winch to use an independent pump driven off the serpentine belt. I would recommend using an identical power steering pump (for parts commonality) and the same electric clutch as the air conditioner (assuming the torque rating is sufficient). However this is starting to sound too much like a science project for me.
Next, I went to my local 4 Wheel Parts supply and got a quote on an ARB Deluxe Bull Bar bumper. They have it on sale right now and the price they quoted me was better than the best price I could find on the Internet. I asked them about hydraulic winches and they tried to talk me into an electric winch. They will install the bumper and electric winch for me but not the hydraulic winch.
Finally, I called ARBUSA and asked them about winch compatibility with the ARB Deluxe Bull Bar. They only claim that their bumpers are compatible with Warn winches because that is all they have tested, but the winch must be the remote solenoid type, so the 9.5xp fits but not the 9.5ti. Also they indicated that there is an access hole in the bumper to reach the clutch leaver.
After a full day of talking to supposed experts and everyone (except Mile Marker) trying to talk me into an electric winch instead of hydraulic I'm starting to waver.
Here is a picture of the Warn 9.5xp winch and specs. Sorry about the off brand vehicle!
9.5XP SPECS/PART NUMBERS
Part Number: 68500 (12V)
Rated Line Pull: 9,500 lbs. (4310 kgs) single-line
Intended Use/Application: Vehicle Recovery / For Trucks and SUVs
Duty Cycle Rating:
Motor: 12V 6 hp, High Output Parallel Series Wound
Remote Control: Remote switch, 12" (3.7m) lead
Geartrain: 3-Stage Planetary
Gear Ratio: 156:1
Lubrication: Aeroshell #17
Clutch (freespooling): Sliding Ring Gear
Brake: Automatic Direct Drive Cone
Wire Rope: 100', 5/16" diameter (30m, 8mm diam.)
Fairlead: Roller
Recommended Battery: 650 CCA minimum for winching
Battery Leads: 2 gauge, 72" (1.83m)
Finish: Chromate with high-gloss dark gray powder coat
Drum Diameter/Length: 2.5"/9.0" (6.4cm/23cm)
Weight: 87 lbs. (39.5 kgs.)
12V DC PERFORMANCE SPECS
Line Pull Line Speed Motor Pull by layer
Lbs.(Kgs.) FT./min(M/min.) Current layer/Lbs(Kgs.)
0 38(11.6) 70 amps 1/9500(4313)
2000(910) 16.8(5.1) 175 amps 2/8650(4927)
4000(1818) 12.8(3.9) 262 amps 3/7920 (3595)
6000(2720) 10.1(3.1) 335 amps 4/7400(3359)
8000(3630) 8.8(2.7) 425 amps 5/6940(3150)
9500(4310) 7.6(2.3) 480 amps
Above performance specs are based on first layer of drum
Winch Dimensions: 22.7" L. x 6.3" D. x 7.7" H.
(577mm L. x 160mm D. x 196 mm H)
Mounting Bolt Pattern: 10.0" x 4.5" (254mm x 114.3mm)
They say best duty cycle, but I wish they quantified it instead of providing a relative scale.
I check the ratings on Optima batteries and assuming I installed a 75 AH Optima, then pulling 6,000 lbs for 1 minute would consume 7.5% of the batteries capacity and a 6,000 lbs pull for 6.7 minutes would consume 50% of the battery capacity and cover 67 feet, but probably over heat the winch. These battery consumption numbers do not seam nearly as scary as I previously thought. Since you are basically just using a percentage of the battery capacity, I think all you need is a high current capacity battery and enough brains to stop before you overheat the winch and/or drain the battery.
The big question is how many minutes could you pull before you needed to stop for cool down?