Leveling kit
#61
01-29-2013, 01:29 PM
[QUOTE=clickpopboom;292178]
Why do you keep proving my point when you post your argument? First of all, you are talking about coil springs. Second, when you change the coil distance, you are creating a progressive spring. You cannot do this with a torsion bar- the reason the length of the bar is part of the equation to calculate the rate is because the entire length of the bar twists at the same time, not one portion at a time.
Let me spell it out for you real slow and simple like:
Torsion bars can only be linear in their spring rate- meaning that the proportion between load and deflection ( L: D) remains constant until you reach the point of material failure.
Coil springs also distribute load evenly throughout their length. Unlike a torsion bar, coil springs are mechanically limited in their travel by what is commonly referred to as "spring or coil bind" in which two or more coils touch each other and can no longer flex like normal. You can use a soft material in a coil spring and by changing the gap between coils you make the spring progressive--- after a certain amount of load the closer together coils will bind, thus making the spring rate stiffer.
Coil springs and torsion bars are two very different beasts, please don't confuse the two.
I haven't proven your point once... You say that, but where have I proved your point?
I'm trying to let you know that there is a difference between a coil spring and a torsion bar. You are the one who stated... Copied and paisted.
As was already mathematically proven, spring rates can only be changed by changing the length or diameter of the material or changing the material itself.
I just mentioned the coil spring can change their rate without changing the meterial. Which you said mathmatically can't happen? When obviousy has nothing to do with math.
So you are going to stick with what you say?
Let's say you have a torsion bar, one end in a vice, and the other end on a torque wrinch. Lets say it takes 100 ft lbs to start to turn the torsion bar... You're saying you can keep turning that torsion bar at 100 ft lbs until it breaks?!?! That just makes absolutley no sense.
The more you turn that torsion bar, the more ft lbs of torque it's going to take to get it to keep turning... let alone break.
Why do you keep proving my point when you post your argument? First of all, you are talking about coil springs. Second, when you change the coil distance, you are creating a progressive spring. You cannot do this with a torsion bar- the reason the length of the bar is part of the equation to calculate the rate is because the entire length of the bar twists at the same time, not one portion at a time.
Let me spell it out for you real slow and simple like:
Torsion bars can only be linear in their spring rate- meaning that the proportion between load and deflection ( L: D) remains constant until you reach the point of material failure.
Coil springs also distribute load evenly throughout their length. Unlike a torsion bar, coil springs are mechanically limited in their travel by what is commonly referred to as "spring or coil bind" in which two or more coils touch each other and can no longer flex like normal. You can use a soft material in a coil spring and by changing the gap between coils you make the spring progressive--- after a certain amount of load the closer together coils will bind, thus making the spring rate stiffer.
Coil springs and torsion bars are two very different beasts, please don't confuse the two.
I haven't proven your point once... You say that, but where have I proved your point?
I'm trying to let you know that there is a difference between a coil spring and a torsion bar. You are the one who stated... Copied and paisted.
As was already mathematically proven, spring rates can only be changed by changing the length or diameter of the material or changing the material itself.
I just mentioned the coil spring can change their rate without changing the meterial. Which you said mathmatically can't happen? When obviousy has nothing to do with math.
So you are going to stick with what you say?
Let's say you have a torsion bar, one end in a vice, and the other end on a torque wrinch. Lets say it takes 100 ft lbs to start to turn the torsion bar... You're saying you can keep turning that torsion bar at 100 ft lbs until it breaks?!?! That just makes absolutley no sense.
The more you turn that torsion bar, the more ft lbs of torque it's going to take to get it to keep turning... let alone break.
Last edited by stevelnew; 01-29-2013 at 04:07 PM.
#62
01-29-2013, 06:14 PM
[QUOTE=stevelnew;292219]
I haven't proven your point once... You say that, but where have I proved your point?
I'm trying to let you know that there is a difference between a coil spring and a torsion bar. You are the one who stated... Copied and paisted.
As was already mathematically proven, spring rates can only be changed by changing the length or diameter of the material or changing the material itself.
I just mentioned the coil spring can change their rate without changing the meterial. Which you said mathmatically can't happen? When obviousy has nothing to do with math.
So you are going to stick with what you say?
Let's say you have a torsion bar, one end in a vice, and the other end on a torque wrinch. Lets say it takes 100 ft lbs to start to turn the torsion bar... You're saying you can keep turning that torsion bar at 100 ft lbs until it breaks?!?! That just makes absolutley no sense.
The more you turn that torsion bar, the more ft lbs of torque it's going to take to get it to keep turning... let alone break.
What the discussion was revolving around and what I was referring to was torsion bars, not coil springs. Coil springs had not even been mentioned yet in the conversation.
Again, let me make this reallllllllllly simple since you cannot seem to grasp it. A torsion bar is a linear spring. This means that the ratio between load and deflection always remains the same. For this example we are using a ratio of 1,000lbs to 1" of deflection.
Load Deflection
1000lbs 1"
2000lbs 2"
3000lbs 3"
Every additional 1000 lbs creates an additional 1" of deflection. "Preloading" the bar does not change this ratio. If you mechanically create 2" of deflection, you will still continue to see 1" of deflection for every 1000lbs of load.
A torsion bar is mechanically limited only by the amount of deflection that the material can withstand before breaking. To give you an idea of how ridiculous what you are saying is:
By saying that turning a torsion bar makes it stiffer, you are saying that the bar will deflect less when under the same load. Let's say that 8" of deflection/8,000lbs is the failure point of our torsion bar. If what you say is correct, then 8,000 lbs will no longer create 8" of deflection in our bar, meaning that the load range has been increased to over 8,000lbs. A miracle! No longer do we have to worry about load ratings on our vehicles! Just turn up those torsion bars as far as we can and we can carry jumbo jets on our roofs!
Sounds pretty retarded doesn't it?
I haven't proven your point once... You say that, but where have I proved your point?
I'm trying to let you know that there is a difference between a coil spring and a torsion bar. You are the one who stated... Copied and paisted.
As was already mathematically proven, spring rates can only be changed by changing the length or diameter of the material or changing the material itself.
I just mentioned the coil spring can change their rate without changing the meterial. Which you said mathmatically can't happen? When obviousy has nothing to do with math.
So you are going to stick with what you say?
Let's say you have a torsion bar, one end in a vice, and the other end on a torque wrinch. Lets say it takes 100 ft lbs to start to turn the torsion bar... You're saying you can keep turning that torsion bar at 100 ft lbs until it breaks?!?! That just makes absolutley no sense.
The more you turn that torsion bar, the more ft lbs of torque it's going to take to get it to keep turning... let alone break.
Again, let me make this reallllllllllly simple since you cannot seem to grasp it. A torsion bar is a linear spring. This means that the ratio between load and deflection always remains the same. For this example we are using a ratio of 1,000lbs to 1" of deflection.
Load Deflection
1000lbs 1"
2000lbs 2"
3000lbs 3"
Every additional 1000 lbs creates an additional 1" of deflection. "Preloading" the bar does not change this ratio. If you mechanically create 2" of deflection, you will still continue to see 1" of deflection for every 1000lbs of load.
A torsion bar is mechanically limited only by the amount of deflection that the material can withstand before breaking. To give you an idea of how ridiculous what you are saying is:
By saying that turning a torsion bar makes it stiffer, you are saying that the bar will deflect less when under the same load. Let's say that 8" of deflection/8,000lbs is the failure point of our torsion bar. If what you say is correct, then 8,000 lbs will no longer create 8" of deflection in our bar, meaning that the load range has been increased to over 8,000lbs. A miracle! No longer do we have to worry about load ratings on our vehicles! Just turn up those torsion bars as far as we can and we can carry jumbo jets on our roofs!
Sounds pretty retarded doesn't it?
#63
01-30-2013, 11:18 AM
[QUOTE=clickpopboom;292229]
Again, let me make this reallllllllllly simple since you cannot seem to grasp it. A torsion bar is a linear spring. This means that the ratio between load and deflection always remains the same. For this example we are using a ratio of 1,000lbs to 1" of deflection.
Load Deflection
1000lbs 1"
2000lbs 2"
3000lbs 3"
Every additional 1000 lbs creates an additional 1" of deflection. "Preloading" the bar does not change this ratio. If you mechanically create 2" of deflection, you will still continue to see 1" of deflection for every 1000lbs of load.
A torsion bar is mechanically limited only by the amount of deflection that the material can withstand before breaking. To give you an idea of how ridiculous what you are saying is:
By saying that turning a torsion bar makes it stiffer, you are saying that the bar will deflect less when under the same load. Let's say that 8" of deflection/8,000lbs is the failure point of our torsion bar. If what you say is correct, then 8,000 lbs will no longer create 8" of deflection in our bar, meaning that the load range has been increased to over 8,000lbs. A miracle! No longer do we have to worry about load ratings on our vehicles! Just turn up those torsion bars as far as we can and we can carry jumbo jets on our roofs!
Sounds pretty retarded doesn't it?
See you just proved my point AGAIN!!!
You are so ignorant you are blind!!!
If it take 1000lbs to move a torsion bar 1" and it take 3000lbs to move the bar 3" then I am right!!! It get's harder to turn the more you turn it!!! You just said so... Which is what this argument was all about in the 1st place.... THANK YOU!!!!
That's all I've been saying since this began... The more you turn a torsion bar the harder it becomes to turn it!!! DUH!!!
THAT'S IT NOTHING ELSE!!!
What's so hard to under stand about that? It's not rocket science.
Again, let me make this reallllllllllly simple since you cannot seem to grasp it. A torsion bar is a linear spring. This means that the ratio between load and deflection always remains the same. For this example we are using a ratio of 1,000lbs to 1" of deflection.
Load Deflection
1000lbs 1"
2000lbs 2"
3000lbs 3"
Every additional 1000 lbs creates an additional 1" of deflection. "Preloading" the bar does not change this ratio. If you mechanically create 2" of deflection, you will still continue to see 1" of deflection for every 1000lbs of load.
A torsion bar is mechanically limited only by the amount of deflection that the material can withstand before breaking. To give you an idea of how ridiculous what you are saying is:
By saying that turning a torsion bar makes it stiffer, you are saying that the bar will deflect less when under the same load. Let's say that 8" of deflection/8,000lbs is the failure point of our torsion bar. If what you say is correct, then 8,000 lbs will no longer create 8" of deflection in our bar, meaning that the load range has been increased to over 8,000lbs. A miracle! No longer do we have to worry about load ratings on our vehicles! Just turn up those torsion bars as far as we can and we can carry jumbo jets on our roofs!
Sounds pretty retarded doesn't it?
See you just proved my point AGAIN!!!
You are so ignorant you are blind!!!
If it take 1000lbs to move a torsion bar 1" and it take 3000lbs to move the bar 3" then I am right!!! It get's harder to turn the more you turn it!!! You just said so... Which is what this argument was all about in the 1st place.... THANK YOU!!!!
That's all I've been saying since this began... The more you turn a torsion bar the harder it becomes to turn it!!! DUH!!!
THAT'S IT NOTHING ELSE!!!
What's so hard to under stand about that? It's not rocket science.
#64
01-30-2013, 11:36 AM
[QUOTE=stevelnew;292263]
See you just proved my point AGAIN!!!
You are so ignorant you are blind!!!
If it take 1000lbs to move a torsion bar 1" and it take 3000lbs to move the bar 3" then I am right!!! It get's harder to turn the more you turn it!!! You just said so... Which is what this argument was all about in the 1st place.... THANK YOU!!!!
That's all I've been saying since this began... The more you turn a torsion bar the harder it becomes to turn it!!! DUH!!!
THAT'S IT NOTHING ELSE!!!
What's so hard to under stand about that? It's not rocket science.
You are confusing yourself. You assume the example (that you think makes your point) refers to turning the bar by adjustment. When you adjust the T Bar Bolt the entire bare turns the same amount.
Clickpop is explaining what happens when the suspension movement twists the T Bar (ie. the A Arm moves, the index Key does not.) Different animals.
See you just proved my point AGAIN!!!
You are so ignorant you are blind!!!
If it take 1000lbs to move a torsion bar 1" and it take 3000lbs to move the bar 3" then I am right!!! It get's harder to turn the more you turn it!!! You just said so... Which is what this argument was all about in the 1st place.... THANK YOU!!!!
That's all I've been saying since this began... The more you turn a torsion bar the harder it becomes to turn it!!! DUH!!!
THAT'S IT NOTHING ELSE!!!
What's so hard to under stand about that? It's not rocket science.
Clickpop is explaining what happens when the suspension movement twists the T Bar (ie. the A Arm moves, the index Key does not.) Different animals.
#65
01-30-2013, 01:11 PM
I reeeally hate to contribute to the confusion,,but,,if a forsion bar is a linear spring,then is a spring not a coiled torsion bar?. As you add weight the torsion in the "long"coiled torsion bar causes it to twist. As close coils bind,whats left is the same as the "binded"coils.???
If its progressive, why is a tb not?
Love these scientific discussions.
If its progressive, why is a tb not?
Love these scientific discussions.
#66
01-30-2013, 02:49 PM
I reeeally hate to contribute to the confusion,,but,,if a forsion bar is a linear spring,then is a spring not a coiled torsion bar?. As you add weight the torsion in the "long"coiled torsion bar causes it to twist. As close coils bind,whats left is the same as the "binded"coils.???
If its progressive, why is a tb not?
Love these scientific discussions.
If its progressive, why is a tb not?
Love these scientific discussions.
#67
01-30-2013, 03:21 PM
The opposite end of the torsion bar is not fixed, the control arm moves with the torsion bar. When adjusting the bolts on the torsion keys, you are just moving the position of the control arm so the vehicle sits higher. The torsion bar is not being preloaded, the other end would have to be fixed such as hitting a drop stop for preload to occur.
#68
01-30-2013, 04:15 PM
The opposite end of the torsion bar is not fixed, the control arm moves with the torsion bar. When adjusting the bolts on the torsion keys, you are just moving the position of the control arm so the vehicle sits higher. The torsion bar is not being preloaded, the other end would have to be fixed such as hitting a drop stop for preload to occur.
#69
01-30-2013, 04:32 PM
It cant take more to turn it as you go up,the h3 just goes up! If it was sitting on a scale it would not change the weight! It would only weigh more if it hit the ceiling,then it would be harder to crank.
#70
01-31-2013, 10:09 AM
[SIZE=1][COLOR=Red][QUOTE=Doc Olds;292267]
You are confusing yourself. You assume the example (that you think makes your point) refers to turning the bar by adjustment. When you adjust the T Bar Bolt the entire bare turns the same amount.
Clickpop is explaining what happens when the suspension movement twists the T Bar (ie. the A Arm moves, the index Key does not.) Different animals.
This comment I was making has nothing to do with why jacking up your truck makes it ride rougher, or even if it does or if it doesn't. I was simply stating that the more you turn a torsion bar the harder it becomes to turn. He kept saying that's not true. When in fact it is true... He even showed that it does by stating
This means that the ratio between load and deflection always remains the same. For this example we are using a ratio of 1,000lbs to 1" of deflection.
Load Deflection
1000lbs 1"
2000lbs 2"
3000lbs 3"
If it did not change, then the deflection of a 1000lbs would = 1", 2", and 3".
That's all I was trying to say with the last few posts.
You are confusing yourself. You assume the example (that you think makes your point) refers to turning the bar by adjustment. When you adjust the T Bar Bolt the entire bare turns the same amount.
Clickpop is explaining what happens when the suspension movement twists the T Bar (ie. the A Arm moves, the index Key does not.) Different animals.
This comment I was making has nothing to do with why jacking up your truck makes it ride rougher, or even if it does or if it doesn't. I was simply stating that the more you turn a torsion bar the harder it becomes to turn. He kept saying that's not true. When in fact it is true... He even showed that it does by stating
This means that the ratio between load and deflection always remains the same. For this example we are using a ratio of 1,000lbs to 1" of deflection.
Load Deflection
1000lbs 1"
2000lbs 2"
3000lbs 3"
If it did not change, then the deflection of a 1000lbs would = 1", 2", and 3".
That's all I was trying to say with the last few posts.