Like most of you, I found the thread on LoJac963's H2 build to be very informative. I learned a lot and certainly thank him for being nice enough to share his build with all of us. I have a couple questions on your build LoJac...
My H2 is a bone stock '08 with the exception of 10 x 20 Moto Metal wheels, 325/60 R20 Nitto Ridge Grapplers, Nerf bars and grill guard, all of which I added (wish I had the U-Steps like you, instead of the Nerf bars but can't find any within budget). My problem is that I don't wish to do any mods that I can't "undo" so that I can maximize resale value if I ever decide to sell. Here in the Dallas area, the H2's that are bringing top dollar are the good condition, low mileage stock trucks that look close to new. Any modification that can't be reversed, like cutting the cross member to do a diff drop for a 6" lift kit, for example, hurts resale value. With this in mind, I still want to do some nice mods on my truck, just nothing irreversible. This means that my lift will be done with keys and T-Bar tweaking and spacers under the rear coils. I know that any lift of this type (without a diff drop) will change the CV axle angle and that is something I just have to live with. I too, like LoJac963 want to go about 2.5 to 3" in the front and then bring up the rear about an inch. I don't want much rake when I am done, just a little. My first question on the LoJac963 build is about the keys used. I think you mentioned that you used the GM green keys, and I also think you said that you kept your T-Bar adjusting bolts exactly where they were with the stock keys, correct? You say that just the keys by themselves raised the front end 3" with no twisting of the T-Bar adjustment bolts, right?
Questions:
1) At 3" of lift on the front with only the keys, did it make the ride any different? Harsh, or no noticeable ride difference at all? I wonder if going full crank on my T-Bars (or new keys; same difference), which will lessen the amount of downward travel (unless I change the upper control arm to return the amount of downward travel to be close to stock) might cause the ride to be more harsh. Comments on this are appreciated.
2) Why did you choose the GM Green keys instead of a set of ProRyde keys, or other brand of keys? Amount of lift they offer? Cost savings? Was the part number of the Green Keys by any chance 15592573?
3) You mention that you installed 1.5" rear lift blocks. What brand? Are they adjustable? Ever use or are you familiar with these coil spacers from ProRyde: http://www.prorydeliftkits.com/super...ed_features-1/ I have no particular allegiance to ProRyde but they just seem to have the keys and rear coil spacers that offer what I am wanting to accomplish. On the subject of the rear coil spacers, I would like to use a product that is adjustable, assuming there is no negative affect by virtue of the fact that they are adjustable. Like I have heard from some other H2 owners, my passenger side is sagging 1/2" over the driver side in the rear. I do not have air bag suspension, so I am assuming the rear passenger coil spring is just sagging more than the driver side. If I ended up wanting to raise the rear an inch, and could use adjustable coil spacers, I would raise the passenger side 1.5" and the drivers side 1" which would level out the problem of the sagging rear passenger coil spring without the need to buy new coil springs. Again, the end result I want is the front end up about 2.5" to 3" and the rear end up about 1". According to LoJac963, a 3" raise in the front (with no rear lift) makes his truck exactly level. I realize that what makes one truck level with a 3" front lift doesn't necessarily mean that all H2's need 3" to be level. Some H2's might be level with less than 3" and some may need slightly more than 3" front lift. Because these trucks that are 10-15 years old all have a slightly different sag, both on the rear coils as well as the T-Bars i.e. different trucks have varying amounts of spring and T-Bar sag due to age and other factors, but this is a great point of reference for me to start with. I would be curious to know exactly what amount of rake a brand new H2 actually had from the factory. Anyway, I digress...
So the above seems to be a doable lift, giving me the amount of lift I want in the front and rear. HAVING SAID ALL THAT...
4) With the above concept,do I need to change out my upper control arms? Cognito has leveling kits that come with replacement upper control arms, the T-Bar keys (similar to the ProRyde or GM Green keys I assume) Pitman and idler arm support kit and longer FOX shocks which I prefer over using extension brackets and stock shocks. So the Cognito kit comes with all that in one package. The Cognito people say that using their aftermarket upper control arms will flatten out the ball joint angle which changes as a result of the front end lift with keys. Can someone tell me why I shouldn't just get the Cognito kit and be done with it?

OK, that is it for now for the questions/comments on leveling kits. Any help is appreciated.

On to a couple problems my truck has that I am wondering if anyone else has, and what a fix might be.

1) My drivers seat seems to work fine and adjusts electronically like it should, BUT ONLY FOR ABOUT THE FIRST MINUTE, then all seat adjustments quit working. Nothing, no response whatsoever from any of the lumbar, height or front/rear adjustments. Then, after about 20 minutes, they all start working again. This situation keeps repeating itself. The first time it happened I was waiting for my wife to come out of the grocery store so I reclined my drivers seat back completely. When she got in the truck and I tried to raise my seat back, it wouldn't move. You should have seen me driving home holding myself up with a death grip on the steering wheel! From that moment on, I have never dared move the seat again. A YouTube video I found suggests that GM seats, my year model, has a wiring harness in the seat back (accessible from the removable panel on the back of the seat) that is installed too close to the moving lumbar support and it gradually wears the insulation off one of the wires creating a short, causing the whole system to shut down until the wiring is shifted back to a different position, strange. I have not pulled the panel off the back of the seat yet to see if I can find a cause. During the pre-purchase inspection the GM dealer did on my truck before I bought it, they found an error code in the diagnostic read out (unfortunately I didn't record what the code was), which they told me had to do with the lumbar adjustment, but at the time I had already verified that the seat adjustments worked fine, so I didn't let the error code worry me too much. Turns out now that I should have paid more attention to what that code meant. Anyone else have this problem? If so what is the fix?

2) My truck has the factory touch screen navigation system with back-up camera. The back-up camera comes on just fine when put into reverse but the image on the screen is very, very bright and washed out like you might see if a brightness adjustment is turned up all the way. I checked the brightness and contrast adjustments and they don't help the problem. The image is so bad it is barely even usable. I am hoping it is the camera which I could replace easily, and not the head unit. I want to keep the stock head unit and not install an aftermarket unit. It works and I like the navigation system, except for the back-up camera image being so bright and washed out. See pic here. Anyone else have similar issue with back-up camera on an '08 or maybe an '09? Any help is appreciated.

Well that is it for now. Sorry for the long post, thought I would get all this out there at once and see if anyone has answers or suggestions on any of these topics.

 

Sorry Hummin, I didn't think your questions would be directly for me or I would have private messaged you to open a thread.


You are correct, I installed GM Green Keys which are indexed differently and when I reinstalled the key bolts I counted the threads to make sure each side went in exactly where they were before the install. This was because one bolt was out further than the other (can't remember which side) meaning one of my torsion bars is worn more than the other. This ensured my rig would remain level from side to side.


Also, I am with you about non-reversible mods which is why almost all my mods do not tear into factory wiring or anything like that. Even though I never plan on getting rid of my rig.


#1. The ride is as buttery smooth as stock. The angles are right though, actually more than I would like. The dust boots on my HD tie rods are almost completely pinched on the inside aspect but not enough to damage them.


#2. I had read about other keys but back in the day the majority of H2 owners were going with GM Green Keys so I figured I would go that route as they were tried and proven to give what everyone was looking for. You are correct on the part number, I ordered both keys for $62.08 from GM Parts Direct.


#3. These are the spacers I have:

They are obviously not adjustable but I am wondering if you contacted the seller or whatever company you buy from, if they will make you a pair with the sizes you need to compensate for the sagging spring.


#4. UCAs will definitely help out the CV angle and front suspension geometry. I've always wanted them but I just can't justify the cost. Maybe after some other odd ball projects with my rig will I finally buy them. It sounds like you will end up piecing together essentially a Cognito kit so it would probably be wiser to just go with the full kit from the start and be done with it like you mentioned.


However, I do know some had issues in the past with Cognito but I cannot attest to that. They had a number of issues with their oversized tie rods which is why I went with DMaxStore HD tie rods. I don't recall every hearing issues about Cognito's UCAs though.


As for your seat issues, I have no idea since mine is an 06. I have no experience with 08/09s. Although, it sounds like your backup camera may be bad since messing with the settings didn't change the picture. If the picture is normal on the stock head unit through all the other functions then I would say it is the actual camera itself.


Let us know if you have any other questions.

 

I've contacted Cognito and if I had it to do again I would just go with their kit. According to them the shock is the limit for front susp travel so either way you go with the shocks they push the CV shaft angle to the max limit. I do plan to get their UCA's to correct the upper ball joint angle and the UCA gives you another 5/8" between the upper bump stop and the UCA. I used the Supreme lvl kit on mine with 2" blocks and have a little more rake than I like so I'll more than likely change to the 1" blocks soon but first I'm going to get the Cognito UCA's and see if they will allow me to raise the front a little more. I can feel an abrupt thump ever so often when crossing RR tracks up front, got to figure out if its the shocks at their limits or the upper bump stop. Other than this the ride is as it was prior to the leveling kit install. I have an 08 also with the factory 20" wheels and 37" tires.

Neal

 

Your truck should have preset memory seats, do the presets work when it stops working with the side controls? If I remember correctly the seats on the 08 have their own control module. I'll plug into mine and see if they do and see what kind of info I can get from it. If so you may be able to get someone to pull the info and see whats going on with it.

Neal

 

Continued thanks for sharing your info LoJac963. As for Cognito, I too have heard the stories of the tie rod problems. I spoke with Kyle at Cognito yesterday, and while I didn't ask about the tie rod problems the company apparently had in the past, in our conversation he did say that they are primarily a suspension company, not a steering parts company, even though they also make steering components. I am hoping that the tie rod stories about Cognito don't translate over to their suspension products like the UCA's. Just in case anyone is interested, Kyle was super nice and obviously very intelligent concerning the H2 front end and what happens during a leveling lift with keys. His extension is 207 should anyone decide to call Cognito requesting info on the H2.

legerwn...thanks for your comments on the seat problem I am having. Yes I do have preset memory seats, and I don't think I pressed the memory seat button when the regular side controls stop working, but I bet the memory seat button won't move the seat either, when the seat decides it needs a rest. I will try that today though and get back to you. Good thinking. Thanks a bunch for the help!

BACK TO THE SUSPENSION DISCUSSION:
Kyle at Cognito told me that there is a misconception in the industry about what causes a "harsh" ride sometimes, by doing a leveling kit on a truck with torsion bar suspension. He said that if a harsh ride is experienced after a leveling kit is installed, it is not due to the T-Bars being "twisted more" than before the keys were installed (which is what I assumed...wrongly). He said that the spring rate of the T-Bars isn't changed when keys are installed, but rather harshness is created when there is a loss of downward suspension travel, which is corrected with their aftermarket UCA's. This makes sense considering that LoJac didn't experience any change in the ride of his truck with a 3" lift with keys i.e. not a STIFFER RIDE. Kyle at Cognito said that it is also incorrect to say that in every case their UCA's return the downward suspension travel amount back to stock after using aftermarket keys, but rather, how close Cognito's UCA's return to the stock downward suspension travel amount depends on how much you crank the T-Bars, and what keys are used. That makes perfect sense. In other words, their UCA's correct the loss of downward suspension travel lost by aftermarket keys TO A CERTAIN POINT depending how radical the keys are, and how much the T-Bars are altered by adjustment. He seemed to imply that with THEIR after market UCA's, and THEIR keys, (that create an approx. 2.5" lift leaving stock settings on the T-Bar adjustment bolts), that the downward suspension travel is restored to approximately what it is on a stock H2, thereby restoring the suspension travel lost due to the installation of aftermarket keys, and thereby eliminating any premature contact between the UCA and the bump stop.
IN SUMMARY...I assumed that "harshness" after the installation of aftermarket keys is defined as "stiffer" but now I think that is incorrect, due to my own ignorance. It appears that any negative effect on the suspension due to aftermarket keys is a bottoming out feeling that occurs when the UCA hits the bump stop prematurely, which can be fixed with aftermarket UCA's. I am only repeating this again in case anyone out there reads this and, like me, completely misunderstood what happens when aftermarket keys are installed, in relation to the torsion bars & ride quality. HAVING SAID ALL THE ABOVE...It would appear that for those of us wondering, we can use aftermarket keys, aftermarket UCA's, and longer shocks (or extension brackets) and lift our front ends 2.5" - 3" with no negative affect other than an angle increase on the CV shaft, for which I wish there was a fix, but oh well.

As for shocks, when I discuss the effects of a leveling kit, and ride quality, I am assuming that the shocks have either had extension brackets installed or longer shocks have been installed, and that shocks have been eliminated from the equation.

legerwn: I am assuming you installed aftermarket keys up front, right? If so, how much lift did you obtain up front? Did you replace your stock shocks up front for longer ones, or install shock bracket extensions for continued use of your stock shocks, or neither? If you raised the front end and left the stock shocks alone, I wouldn't think that the "abrupt thump" you feel over RR tracks is the shocks bottoming out, but rather the UCA hitting the bump stop prematurely. Kyle at Cognito says that the aftermarket UCA restores "DOWNWARD SUSPENSION TRAVEL" which sounds like what you may be needing.

Before I pop for the Cognito kit, I am going to call a couple 4WD suspension shops here in the Dallas area and quiz them on this same subject, and see what they sell for aftermarket UCA's used with a leveling kit. One of my local shops is All Out Off Road Performance and they seem to be one of the nations experts on lift and leveling kits. Another local shop I have access to is Truxx Outfitters and they claim to be the "ORIGINAL" creator of leveling kits. I will report back as to what these two shops say concerning level kits and aftermarket UCA's.

Thanks guys for responding and helping me figure all this out!

 

I still have the stock shocks on mine, both front and rear with the lift. Normal driving they should be fine but for full extension they would bottom out on the front I am sure. I do plan on replacing with Bilstein all around, the ones intended for small lifts like we are talking about. I just haven't gotten around to it.


I take my H2 offroad, nothing too crazy but I fly through the desert here going 40-50mpg with absolutely no issues.


UCAs will make an improvement but a front diff drop is the only thing to fix those CV/tie rod angles which requires a full lift. Bulletproof does make a kit where you don't have to hack into anything FYI. That was the only lift kit I had thought about back in the day simply for that reason.

 

Interesting that you have the stock shocks and no brackets to compensate for the extended distance between mounts. I would have not thought that would work so well. Glad you shared that. I agree that new shocks is the best, but at least I now know that I could use stock shocks without brackets for awhile if needed. I have seen that all lift kits, beyond just a leveling kit with keys, require a diff drop, to restore the CV shaft angle, which we all knows means cutting. However, I too have see Bulletproof's statements that they claim they have a lift kit that doesn't require cutting. I have been trying to make time to call them for the last few days. I might do so later today. I am very curious to see what the heck they are talking about. Here is what they say:

Bulletproof Hummer H2 6″ kit maintains factory wheel track width and wheel base and there’s no need for cutting off the main factory boss on the differential like on other H2 lift kits. We here at Bulletproof Suspension know that, being able to return your truck back to stock is essential to the re-sale value of your vehicle. In addition, both the steering and differential are dropped down not just left in the factory position as on some H2 lift kits. This prevents any extreme angles and maintains the factory geometry while still achieving up to 6″ of lift with no axle spacers (ask the other guys if they can do that!).

The above doesn't say they don't have to cut the cross member, only that they don't have to cut off the main factory boss on the differential. I need to call them and get the straight scoop. I don't really want a full 6" lift, but I would go 4" if I knew a way to not cut any frame or diff parts at all. I will report back with my findings.

 

This is also where I'm at with a lift. I want to lift some but it seems that the sweet spot I want is about 3 to 4 inches of lift. But the only choices are to crank up to at most about 3 inches with some re-indexed keys (and potentially bad CV angles and whatnot) or to spend 3+ grand and irreversibly go 6+ inches.

It is sounding however like maybe just going with extended shocks, new UCA's and re-indexed keys might not be so bad after all. For mine I have a bit more since I'll need to fabricate the spacers for the air springs and extended arms for the sensors for those (I like the air ride and plan on keeping it).

 

Hey MixManSC...I am thinking exactly the same as you. I would like 4 inches without cutting my frame, which as we have seen, is impossible. Like you, I see no "in-between". It's either a max of 3" with keys with an aftermarket UCA and a changed CV shaft angle (but doable) or a full on 6" lift with frame cut. Man, if someone invented a 4" lift with no frame cutting they would be a rich man me thinks. It's 4:30PM here in Dallas and I think I will sign off and call Bulletproof right now to see what they offer.

 

OK, here's the skinny on Bulletproof...
I just got off the phone with Brian at Bulletproof (nice guy, patient with all my questions etc.) and the big draw for them is that with their kit there is no need to cut off the main factory boss on the differential housing, which after talking to him, I realize is a big hack job. If someone ever wanted to go back to stock, that factory boss on the differential housing would have to be welded back on the cast aluminum housing. He says they can do that so it is not impossible, but good luck finding someone in your local area that you could trust to weld back on a major part of the cast aluminum housing. So that is in fact a big plus. He explained to me why that cut is not necessary with their kit but it IS necessary in all other kits, but I won't go into that explanation here. If anyone wants to know I will be happy to explain in a different post. BUT, AND THIS IS A BIG BUT for those of us who want to be able to return to stock if we ever wanted to, THERE IS STILL CUTTING INVOLVED WITH THE BULLETPROOF KIT. Brian said that there is still a need to cut off the factory bump stops, and an "ear" off the frame that is about 2 x 3", on one side. He said that if you saved that "ear" and the factory bump stops, those parts could be welded back on pretty easily. Also, they only offer a kit for a 6" lift and a 12" lift.

So there you have it gents. Frame cutting is still involved and each of us can decide what they are willing to do or not willing to do for the sake of a higher lift. For me, mainly because my truck is a later model with very low miles in darn near like new condition, I just can't entertain the thought of cutting anything on the frame, not even bump stops and not even a small "ear" off one side of the frame. That's just too much cost and trouble to make a truck stock again. Having said that, if I had a truck that I absolutely knew I was never going to try and sell for top dollar someday, and I was going to do a 6" lift, I would definitely choose Bulletproof.

For me, my decision is a simple one, I am going to go with a 2.5-3" lift on the front with keys and a kit that comes with an aftermarket UCA and new shocks in the front, and coil spacers for a 1" lift in the rear and call it good. Right now I lean towards the Cognito kit, probably a Stage 4 Kit as it comes with shocks and also pitman and idler arm support kits. In case anyone wants to know, the Cognito Stage 2 and the Cognito Stage 3 kit also come with the aftermarket UCA's too, just not the shocks or pitman/idler arm supports for extra strength. Before I pop for the Cognito kit I am going to call two well known 4WD shops in my area to see if they suggest another brand besides Cognito for my lift. I will report back on what my local shops recommend in terms of brand of front leveling kits and rear coil spring spacers.