Please help figure out starting issue!
#11
07-01-2023, 07:40 PM
So you used Genuine GM starters. That is good. But are they brand new? GM also sells rebuilt parts.
If brand new, not rebuilt, then it kind of eliminates the starter itself, unless you got a couple of bad starters in a row (unlikely).
But.....heat-soak is a common problem with many electrical and mechanical devices. I have see the starter start to work after being tapped with a hammer for over 50 years. Or after cooling down. Because I would think more power draw is required if the starter is hot, just like with any other electrical devices where heat increases resistance.
Alternatively, think tolerances. Something binds as it heats up and tolerances shrink. Could that be a starter or a flywheel issue? We do not know. Since it only started when the transmission was rebuilt, I can see how you would suspect a mating problem between flywheel and starter. But unlikely the issue.
I presume you also replaced the solenoids when you replaced the starters? All in one unit, siting on the starter or inside it? I have not looked the Hummer starter, so not sure how it is configured. Tapping the solenoid to engage it would suggest a bad solenoid. Tapping it usually breaks a stuck contact pole and makes it work.
That would suggest the starters are all defective. But since you did the trany thing, it rather suggests that they somehow bent or mangled the flywheel, but that could just be a red herring.
Here is the thing. If a good starter was trying to mate to a bad flywheel gear, it would cause monster noise. And you are not hearing any. Ditto if the starter or flywheel was mounted incorrectly, so that is likely not it.
So where does this leave us? Not many options left for a non-active starter. Guessing bad starter, bad power feed (not enough amps getting to starter when hot), or bad ground.
Cheapest route is to FIRST a) test the battery properly with a load-drop test, and then if OK, b) change out the main cable form battery to starter.
The biggest clue here is the word "HOT".
Hope this info helps.
If brand new, not rebuilt, then it kind of eliminates the starter itself, unless you got a couple of bad starters in a row (unlikely).
But.....heat-soak is a common problem with many electrical and mechanical devices. I have see the starter start to work after being tapped with a hammer for over 50 years. Or after cooling down. Because I would think more power draw is required if the starter is hot, just like with any other electrical devices where heat increases resistance.
Alternatively, think tolerances. Something binds as it heats up and tolerances shrink. Could that be a starter or a flywheel issue? We do not know. Since it only started when the transmission was rebuilt, I can see how you would suspect a mating problem between flywheel and starter. But unlikely the issue.
I presume you also replaced the solenoids when you replaced the starters? All in one unit, siting on the starter or inside it? I have not looked the Hummer starter, so not sure how it is configured. Tapping the solenoid to engage it would suggest a bad solenoid. Tapping it usually breaks a stuck contact pole and makes it work.
That would suggest the starters are all defective. But since you did the trany thing, it rather suggests that they somehow bent or mangled the flywheel, but that could just be a red herring.
Here is the thing. If a good starter was trying to mate to a bad flywheel gear, it would cause monster noise. And you are not hearing any. Ditto if the starter or flywheel was mounted incorrectly, so that is likely not it.
So where does this leave us? Not many options left for a non-active starter. Guessing bad starter, bad power feed (not enough amps getting to starter when hot), or bad ground.
Cheapest route is to FIRST a) test the battery properly with a load-drop test, and then if OK, b) change out the main cable form battery to starter.
The biggest clue here is the word "HOT".
Hope this info helps.
Yes, both GM starters were brand new and not rebuilt. And the starters come with new solenoids as well. (Hence why I agree that after putting the second new one in, and it happening again tells me it wasn't the starter). Also me being able to hit it randomly as needed for months......and not it just working a few times to hit the starter, and then the starter quiting for good, tells me it's not the "starter" unless heat soak like you said. (I even replaced the tiny heat shield that pops onto top of starter, as old one was half rusted away).
Now the second new starter did work perfectly for about 6 weeks and then just did the 1 click for first time few days ago. Getting under there and hitting the starter worked first try and hasn't happened since yet. (Because again, in the past, with the first new starter, hitting it would usually get it to start instead of the 1 click, but didn't always)
#12
07-01-2023, 08:30 PM
So you used Genuine GM starters. That is good. But are they brand new? GM also sells rebuilt parts.
If brand new, not rebuilt, then it kind of eliminates the starter itself, unless you got a couple of bad starters in a row (unlikely).
But.....heat-soak is a common problem with many electrical and mechanical devices. I have see the starter start to work after being tapped with a hammer for over 50 years. Or after cooling down. Because I would think more power draw is required if the starter is hot, just like with any other electrical devices where heat increases resistance.
Alternatively, think tolerances. Something binds as it heats up and tolerances shrink. Could that be a starter or a flywheel issue? We do not know. Since it only started when the transmission was rebuilt, I can see how you would suspect a mating problem between flywheel and starter. But unlikely the issue.
I presume you also replaced the solenoids when you replaced the starters? All in one unit, siting on the starter or inside it? I have not looked the Hummer starter, so not sure how it is configured. Tapping the solenoid to engage it would suggest a bad solenoid. Tapping it usually breaks a stuck contact pole and makes it work.
That would suggest the starters are all defective. But since you did the trany thing, it rather suggests that they somehow bent or mangled the flywheel, but that could just be a red herring.
Here is the thing. If a good starter was trying to mate to a bad flywheel gear, it would cause monster noise. And you are not hearing any. Ditto if the starter or flywheel was mounted incorrectly, so that is likely not it.
So where does this leave us? Not many options left for a non-active starter. Guessing bad starter, bad power feed (not enough amps getting to starter when hot), or bad ground.
Cheapest route is to FIRST a) test the battery properly with a load-drop test, and then if OK, b) change out the main cable form battery to starter.
The biggest clue here is the word "HOT".
Hope this info helps.
If brand new, not rebuilt, then it kind of eliminates the starter itself, unless you got a couple of bad starters in a row (unlikely).
But.....heat-soak is a common problem with many electrical and mechanical devices. I have see the starter start to work after being tapped with a hammer for over 50 years. Or after cooling down. Because I would think more power draw is required if the starter is hot, just like with any other electrical devices where heat increases resistance.
Alternatively, think tolerances. Something binds as it heats up and tolerances shrink. Could that be a starter or a flywheel issue? We do not know. Since it only started when the transmission was rebuilt, I can see how you would suspect a mating problem between flywheel and starter. But unlikely the issue.
I presume you also replaced the solenoids when you replaced the starters? All in one unit, siting on the starter or inside it? I have not looked the Hummer starter, so not sure how it is configured. Tapping the solenoid to engage it would suggest a bad solenoid. Tapping it usually breaks a stuck contact pole and makes it work.
That would suggest the starters are all defective. But since you did the trany thing, it rather suggests that they somehow bent or mangled the flywheel, but that could just be a red herring.
Here is the thing. If a good starter was trying to mate to a bad flywheel gear, it would cause monster noise. And you are not hearing any. Ditto if the starter or flywheel was mounted incorrectly, so that is likely not it.
So where does this leave us? Not many options left for a non-active starter. Guessing bad starter, bad power feed (not enough amps getting to starter when hot), or bad ground.
Cheapest route is to FIRST a) test the battery properly with a load-drop test, and then if OK, b) change out the main cable form battery to starter.
The biggest clue here is the word "HOT".
Hope this info helps.
Sorry hard to remember all your points to respond too in one message. Just to be extra clear, whenever it won't start, I tap on the starter itself, not the solenoid to get it to work. (You can't get to the solenoid from underneath to tap on that)
I too have suspected heat soak in past, as the few times that hitting the starter wouldn't work.......waiting a few hours and trying it again, (hitting it), would work. I don't know how to test the heat soak theory. (Like I said before I got a new starter heat shield as well and that seemed to do nothing, even though the old one was mostly rusted away to nothing). If any pointers on things to test it try for heat soak, please let me know.
As for this all starting after having tranny redone, I also don't know how to inspect or test this theory properly either. The guy I was recommended to take it to, works at a shop during the day, and does tranny's on the side at night, typa deal. But to be as blunt as possible, he was a complete moron. Had to do the job multiple times to get it right. (Mostly because he's a donkey and only replaces the "hard parts that are bad" instead of actually rebuilding them. Which is not what we discussed ahead of time but I digress). He had never done a Hummer H2 transmission before though.....and our truck has a few unique things. Like a 1mm different torque converter (299 and 300mm for Hummer vs other GM). I honestly fear it's his incompetence on why we are dealing with this in the first place, but I would have to solve it and prove it, to make him fix it.....(and I don't know how to test /solve this either).
Which is why I'm here at your mercy begging for s1 that knows alot more than I, to help me figure it out.
Replacing the cable going from battery to starter, is one of the next steps for me to "cheaply" eliminate another possibility. I don't know what to do but process of elimination and if get to where it can't be anything else, make the transmission guy, fix it right.
#13
07-02-2023, 09:06 AM
Take the time to troubleshoot it before changing parts or your left with wondering if it will do it again.
The next time it does it get your multimeter out and do some troubleshooting. The starter grounds itself to the block at the mounting surface so when testing for voltage drop use the starter body as the ground. First check the ground wire at the block to make sure there is a good connection then check the positive lead at the red connection box near the driver side head for a good connection there (If it has one). When it acts up next time, if it does again, use the meter to check for voltage drop while someone is trying to start it. There should be 12 volts at the starter on the main cable from the battery, if there is voltage at the starter on the main cable but it does not try to start then check for voltage at the small purple wire on the solenoid, both have to have 12 volts to make the starter engage. If neither have voltage use the block as the ground, if you now have voltage using the engine block then you have a ground issue with the starter body mating to the block. If you still don't have voltage then use the negative cable at the front of the block and try again, if still no voltage try at the battery for a ground, this will eliminate the ground side of the equation. Ground may be present while sitting there but the real test is when a load is put on the starter. You'll need to do the same test with the positive side also if the ground is not the issue. You could test the ground by using the positive terminal at the battery and then trying the starter body but most meter leads are not long enough to do it. If you can use the positive terminal at the battery it will take the positive cable out of the equation while testing the ground side.
The solenoid clicking but not starting can be a voltage drop issue (connection issue) and may only show up when a load is placed on the starter circuit, it may be on either the ignition side or the main battery cable side.
I've read about wires getting pinched between the trans and engine but have not looked to see what wires are in the loom that cross in that area,
Be careful hitting the starter, its easy to knock the internal magnets loose
Hope this helps,
Neal
The next time it does it get your multimeter out and do some troubleshooting. The starter grounds itself to the block at the mounting surface so when testing for voltage drop use the starter body as the ground. First check the ground wire at the block to make sure there is a good connection then check the positive lead at the red connection box near the driver side head for a good connection there (If it has one). When it acts up next time, if it does again, use the meter to check for voltage drop while someone is trying to start it. There should be 12 volts at the starter on the main cable from the battery, if there is voltage at the starter on the main cable but it does not try to start then check for voltage at the small purple wire on the solenoid, both have to have 12 volts to make the starter engage. If neither have voltage use the block as the ground, if you now have voltage using the engine block then you have a ground issue with the starter body mating to the block. If you still don't have voltage then use the negative cable at the front of the block and try again, if still no voltage try at the battery for a ground, this will eliminate the ground side of the equation. Ground may be present while sitting there but the real test is when a load is put on the starter. You'll need to do the same test with the positive side also if the ground is not the issue. You could test the ground by using the positive terminal at the battery and then trying the starter body but most meter leads are not long enough to do it. If you can use the positive terminal at the battery it will take the positive cable out of the equation while testing the ground side.
The solenoid clicking but not starting can be a voltage drop issue (connection issue) and may only show up when a load is placed on the starter circuit, it may be on either the ignition side or the main battery cable side.
I've read about wires getting pinched between the trans and engine but have not looked to see what wires are in the loom that cross in that area,
Be careful hitting the starter, its easy to knock the internal magnets loose
Hope this helps,
Neal
Last edited by legerwn; 07-02-2023 at 09:09 AM.
#14
07-02-2023, 09:00 PM
Neal, is it possible to damage a meter when cranking? There are a lot of amps moving about. Guessing not, but just asking.
Presume + lead is on hot at starter, and - lead touching body or some metal. So meter is not “inline” with any heavy load, correct?
Still, I am going to guess that this may be a new bad battery issue. Just a hunch. Especially if it is a crappy Interstate or some other discount brand. The OEM battery is a monster. I am on my 2nd new one from GM in 17 years of ownership. Expensive, and worth every cent. Bought last year. That means I get 8 years out of it. Lot of brand new defective batteries out there..
The reason why a battery? I have no idea. But that is where I would start. You need to know the CCA, because a bad battery can still deliver 12V but no amps. Seen that so many times on car forums.
Hey OP, did u test the battery? Most places will do it for free if u take in a bare battery. And what brand is it? What capacity is it?
To test for heat soak, take a garden hose to the starter when it is hot and not working. Then see if it works. But still will not tell u if it is a starter, bad connection, or bad battery.
Presume + lead is on hot at starter, and - lead touching body or some metal. So meter is not “inline” with any heavy load, correct?
Still, I am going to guess that this may be a new bad battery issue. Just a hunch. Especially if it is a crappy Interstate or some other discount brand. The OEM battery is a monster. I am on my 2nd new one from GM in 17 years of ownership. Expensive, and worth every cent. Bought last year. That means I get 8 years out of it. Lot of brand new defective batteries out there..
The reason why a battery? I have no idea. But that is where I would start. You need to know the CCA, because a bad battery can still deliver 12V but no amps. Seen that so many times on car forums.
Hey OP, did u test the battery? Most places will do it for free if u take in a bare battery. And what brand is it? What capacity is it?
To test for heat soak, take a garden hose to the starter when it is hot and not working. Then see if it works. But still will not tell u if it is a starter, bad connection, or bad battery.
Last edited by finall; 07-02-2023 at 09:15 PM.
#16
09-14-2023, 08:43 PM
Update - It's finally got more frequent to where I can actually test things.
Take the time to troubleshoot it before changing parts or your left with wondering if it will do it again.
The next time it does it get your multimeter out and do some troubleshooting. The starter grounds itself to the block at the mounting surface so when testing for voltage drop use the starter body as the ground. First check the ground wire at the block to make sure there is a good connection then check the positive lead at the red connection box near the driver side head for a good connection there (If it has one). When it acts up next time, if it does again, use the meter to check for voltage drop while someone is trying to start it. There should be 12 volts at the starter on the main cable from the battery, if there is voltage at the starter on the main cable but it does not try to start then check for voltage at the small purple wire on the solenoid, both have to have 12 volts to make the starter engage. If neither have voltage use the block as the ground, if you now have voltage using the engine block then you have a ground issue with the starter body mating to the block. If you still don't have voltage then use the negative cable at the front of the block and try again, if still no voltage try at the battery for a ground, this will eliminate the ground side of the equation. Ground may be present while sitting there but the real test is when a load is put on the starter. You'll need to do the same test with the positive side also if the ground is not the issue. You could test the ground by using the positive terminal at the battery and then trying the starter body but most meter leads are not long enough to do it. If you can use the positive terminal at the battery it will take the positive cable out of the equation while testing the ground side.
The solenoid clicking but not starting can be a voltage drop issue (connection issue) and may only show up when a load is placed on the starter circuit, it may be on either the ignition side or the main battery cable side.
I've read about wires getting pinched between the trans and engine but have not looked to see what wires are in the loom that cross in that area,
Be careful hitting the starter, its easy to knock the internal magnets loose
Hope this helps,
Neal
The next time it does it get your multimeter out and do some troubleshooting. The starter grounds itself to the block at the mounting surface so when testing for voltage drop use the starter body as the ground. First check the ground wire at the block to make sure there is a good connection then check the positive lead at the red connection box near the driver side head for a good connection there (If it has one). When it acts up next time, if it does again, use the meter to check for voltage drop while someone is trying to start it. There should be 12 volts at the starter on the main cable from the battery, if there is voltage at the starter on the main cable but it does not try to start then check for voltage at the small purple wire on the solenoid, both have to have 12 volts to make the starter engage. If neither have voltage use the block as the ground, if you now have voltage using the engine block then you have a ground issue with the starter body mating to the block. If you still don't have voltage then use the negative cable at the front of the block and try again, if still no voltage try at the battery for a ground, this will eliminate the ground side of the equation. Ground may be present while sitting there but the real test is when a load is put on the starter. You'll need to do the same test with the positive side also if the ground is not the issue. You could test the ground by using the positive terminal at the battery and then trying the starter body but most meter leads are not long enough to do it. If you can use the positive terminal at the battery it will take the positive cable out of the equation while testing the ground side.
The solenoid clicking but not starting can be a voltage drop issue (connection issue) and may only show up when a load is placed on the starter circuit, it may be on either the ignition side or the main battery cable side.
I've read about wires getting pinched between the trans and engine but have not looked to see what wires are in the loom that cross in that area,
Be careful hitting the starter, its easy to knock the internal magnets loose
Hope this helps,
Neal
I really appreciate all that Neal. I finally have a chance to do some tests. I have to admit that there where a few parts where I wasn't exactly sure where to test from what you said. It's embarrassing because you did a great job with explaining, I'm just one that learns much better hands on/ being shown in person. Between what you said and a video I watched on how to do a "drop down" test and a "voltage drop" test I did some testing today and wanted to share what I have so far, and hope it will help you, tell me what to do next or what I should have done better.
I tested the positive and negative battery terminals for the battery voltage. 13.8V
I then tested the voltage at the starter. Putting positive lead on the main starter stud (that's supposed to be always hot) and the negative lead on the starter housing. 13.8V
I tested the voltage at the smaller stud (only supposed to have power when key turned) with negative lead on starter housing and it was 11.8V
I also did a few tests with a test light. I'm pretty sure I put the negative lead on the negative battery terminal and stretched the test light to the main stud on the starter and while trying to start the truck.....the light never dimmed. (It stayed nice and bright but the truck didn't start, just the same loud 1 click as always)
I also tried the "voltage drop test" by connecting to battery positive and to starter positive while under a load (trying to start it). It only showed a 0.1 volt drop. (Completely normal in my understanding)
Then later today I went from the negative battery terminal to the main starter stud. Before trying to start the truck it was 0.1 and while trying to start the truck it was 0.1
Same for the negative battery terminal to the smaller starter stud. 0.1 with and without trying to start it.
Then tried from positive battery terminal to the main starter stud. Without key on it was 14.4V and when key on/trying to start it dropped to 8.8V for 1 second. (This is the one thing that seemed odd to me but am just to ignorant to understand fully). Feel I need to repeat this one tomorrow.
Can you make sense of anything so far? What should I test next? (Or re-test)
#17
09-15-2023, 05:40 PM
I may not be following your explanation fully,
Did you check the voltage at the starter red meter lead on the main positive cable and ground lead on the starter body as the ground and have someone try and start the truck and if so what did the voltage do?
The voltage dropping to 8.8 is an issue and it only dropping for a second is also an issue?
Neal
Did you check the voltage at the starter red meter lead on the main positive cable and ground lead on the starter body as the ground and have someone try and start the truck and if so what did the voltage do?
The voltage dropping to 8.8 is an issue and it only dropping for a second is also an issue?
Neal
#18
09-16-2023, 08:10 AM
So here's one that you can do also to eliminate the cables as the issue,
take a set of jumper cables and connect them to the battery then clamp them to the starter, positive on the starter lug with the positive cable and the ground to the body of the starter then try and start it, let us know what happens when you do this.
Neal
take a set of jumper cables and connect them to the battery then clamp them to the starter, positive on the starter lug with the positive cable and the ground to the body of the starter then try and start it, let us know what happens when you do this.
Neal
#19
09-16-2023, 10:00 AM
I may not be following your explanation fully,
Did you check the voltage at the starter red meter lead on the main positive cable and ground lead on the starter body as the ground and have someone try and start the truck and if so what did the voltage do?
The voltage dropping to 8.8 is an issue and it only dropping for a second is also an issue?
Neal
Did you check the voltage at the starter red meter lead on the main positive cable and ground lead on the starter body as the ground and have someone try and start the truck and if so what did the voltage do?
The voltage dropping to 8.8 is an issue and it only dropping for a second is also an issue?
Neal
Sorry for not getting back yesterday, was driving all day. I did perform new tests and took better notes this time. I also had the wifey help me instead of the kids, to try to insure most accurate results possible. Here's what I tested and found.
Voltage at battery to start - 13.9V
(Voltage dropped to 13V while trying to start it)
*this to me says the battery is good and it should be because it's a new battery but we can't assume anything of course.
Voltage at Starter (starter studs to starter housing)
Main stud (normal) 14V
Main stud (while cranking) 13.3V
S stud (normal) 0V
S stud (while cranking) 12V
Voltage at Starter (Starter studs to BATTERY -)
Main stud (normal) 14.2V
Main stud (while cranking) 13.4V
S stud (normal) 0V
S stud (while cranking) 12.1V
Resistance tests (ohms)
- BATTERY terminal to starter housing (0 ohms)
- BATTERY terminal to firewall ground (0 ohms)
in summary, to me, everything tests good. I see no helpful information in narrowing down the issue. (Please correct me if I'm wrong)
I was worried about the cables going to starter.....I was worried about the bottom of engine being rusty where starter mates to block......I was worried about my firewall ground I had to redo from the little stud on firewall snapping off where it's supposed to go......and I was wondering if it could be a relay, ignition related, neutral safety switch, aftermarket remote start, or a random frayed wire/short.
I truly suspected the wires going to starter or the starter grounding to block by where it mounts......the main cable that's always hot going to starter has a little green patina on the actual cable fibers, but the eyelet, is perfectly clean on end of cables that connect to starter. Suspected the mounting position on bottom of block because Im pretty sure I noticed it was a bit rusty the last time had starter off. Also this issue started after having trans rebuilt so that gives a second reason for both the cables (possibly pinched or damaged) and the starter mounting location (starter was off the truck for weeks in cold weather, giving perfect opportunity for rust where it mounts). But aren't both of these options eliminated by the test results? Voltage tests saying it's not the cables because correct power at studs.........and starter grounding to block not the problem because of resistance test from battery negative to starter housing being 0 ohms.
#20
09-16-2023, 11:00 AM
I may not be following your explanation fully,
Did you check the voltage at the starter red meter lead on the main positive cable and ground lead on the starter body as the ground and have someone try and start the truck and if so what did the voltage do?
The voltage dropping to 8.8 is an issue and it only dropping for a second is also an issue?
Neal
Did you check the voltage at the starter red meter lead on the main positive cable and ground lead on the starter body as the ground and have someone try and start the truck and if so what did the voltage do?
The voltage dropping to 8.8 is an issue and it only dropping for a second is also an issue?
Neal
It's been a hectic few days and I did these second tests Thursday. Forgot I had a few other tests written on backside of notes I took. I thought to take a resistance test on a few other things including "under a load"
Negative battery terminal to the rusty engine block just behind the starter was "1." (Same reading you get without touching multimeter terminals to anything....which I believe is "infinity")
Negative battery terminal to the solenoid housing was 0.11 ohms
Negative battery terminal to the starter housing was odd, it seemed to fluctuate a bit depending on the exact spot I probed. I feel like they 0.88 ohms was the best / average to report here.
Most interesting result to report.....was with going from negative battery post to the solenoid housing AND CRANKING I got 3.31 Ohms with it set on the "20k Ohm" setting...............I'm thinking this means it is HIGH RESISTANCE from the block being rusty where the starter mounts to it.......is this correct?